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VXIII on 17 August 2011
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SvennoJ said:
VXIII said:
Chrizum said:
VXIII said:
Chrizum said:
VXIII said:
sapphi_snake said:
VXIII said:
oldschoolfool said:
VXIII said:

Look around you , your PC was made by logical cause-effect processes , was there someone behind it or was it by chance that some materials formed the parts such as motherboard and ram -because some kind of explosion- , and the all parts somehow got together perfectly, then also by chance a DVD was formed and has some kind of data that happened to run perfectly on that PC so you'd be able to play Half-Life2. chance can't make a perfect and precise system . I really hope that I made my point clear

BTW that of course brings a very valid question "How God was created then?", the answers to that are always personal conclusions , that God isn't bound by the the same natural laws that we have in our reality  , cause-effect process must have been started at some point , that point is God

Hope you don't mind me dropping in, but that's a perfect example of the problems you run in to when you are just looking at the end product. Man did not sit down and design the modern pc to play half-life 2. First we started playing with electricity, then figured out how to put switches in succession and how to make automatons. As well we figured out how to capture sound waves onto rolls of wax. From there it's evolution on steroids, going a million times faster. Good ideas thrive, while bad ones quickly become obsolete.

Chance is only a small part of evolution, competition is key.

A bit more on topic "cause-effect process must have been started at some point , that point is God" Does that mean you are calling the big bang, God? As far as science goes the questions what was before the big bang or where did the big bang happen are meaningless, since the current theory is that space and time were formed in the big bang leading to cause-effect processes.

I don't believe in god personally but also believe whether there is or is no God can't be proven. I think the same applies to free will and determinism. How can you be sure that 'you' are making decisions or that cause-effect is making them for you based on external influences adding up until you take action. The brain is evolved to find patterns and explanations to lead to better predictions and planning for better survival. Are we just witnissing this process or do you actually make decisions. How can you prove one or the other. Is there a difference.

Even if the big bang did happen it's still an effect ,what was the cause?  that's definitely not a meaningless question ,no answers even in theories ,as I said cause-effect process must have been started at some point ,that point is the cause of all causes which isn't bound by the natural laws, the ultimate Mind/power/free will ..that's what I mean by God. I won't say this is the only explanation that makes sense because that's just me

About what you said about our free will. I think you just need to make it more simple. If I offered you two kinds of fruit , an orange and a mango  , let's say you pick the orange , do you really think that you couldn't pick the mango whatsoever because there is an unbreakable process that determines everything ?. I think what troubles you that we lose our free will as soon as we choose something, you can no longer choose the mango after you've chosen the orange, look at it while you can still choose not after you've made the choice.