Sao Paolo's Gonna Have... a Straight 'Pride' Parade? O_o

[Farmageddon]

sapphi_snake said:

Farmageddon said:

sapphi_snake said:

1. Yes, there's nothing wrong with enjoying people (especially attractive people) having the type of sex you enjoy in front of you. We all love it when that happens.

And I can understand that you may think that traits of minorities get more attention when it comes to discrimination. However, a minority is born when a group that is dominant takes one of it's features and considers it superior (often a justification for dominance), and then labels all people with the opposite feature as inferior. There are some groups out there that you can say are 'disliked' (emos, goths, punks etc.), but you can't really compare it to a discrimination that takes place on the level of the whole society, and that even extends to legal aspects (like in the case of blacks and gays).

2. No it's not ok for you to shoot anyone, but should your grandchildren be made to feel ashamed of who they are if you do that? Are they guilty? And say you shot a guy who also intended to kill you, should this guy's grandchildren be seen as poor santified victims?

In the case of social groups (or better yet, nations), the group is still the same, even if the individuals have changed. Your ancestors did the crime, you're the one stuck paying for it.

Anyways, people never really pay for their ancestors mistakes on a wider scope, but they can still try to fix injustices that go on in their own countries. I do agree though that social programs should aim to help disadvantaged indidivuals, and should take into consideration current realities.

3. Ultimately, it's the gay kid who suffers the most, and is persecuted by his parents for who he is. Whose fault is it that the parents are following a hate-filled ideology that has nothing to do with reality, which psychologically hurts both them and leads them to hurt their child?

5. The shame that persecuted groups experience is a result of the persecution, and the dominant rhetoric which demonizes them and alienates them. The 'shame' that former persecutors would feel is simply remorse for doing terrible deeds.

1. Sure, just remember this discussion is supposed to be based in present day reality, where discrimination is low on a practical level. The only big legal problem I see is adoption, but please, it's understandable and I'd say not just discrimination. As I said before it's just too damn different. Still, the way things are going it might not take too long for it to become a reality.

Also, I wasn't even talking about emos or goths or punks necessarily, there are lots of traits (as opposed to "ideologies", used here in the vaguest of senses) which are seen as bad by the mainstream and are really nameless minorities, and these can suffer as much or even more, it's just harder to quantify.

And seeing as in reality most people don't really mistreat gays, only certain groups, I don't think the difference to even groups as the ones you mentioned is that big. The difference there comes more from the way the groups position themselves so that they are "less affected". Point in case are atheists, who, according to some polls I can't find for the life of me, are less accepted than all sorts of gays, including transexuals.

2. I can see a nation reapaying direct damage it did, but that doesn't mean the descendents of the perpetrators should be guilty ridden. And in reality, in the cases we're discussing, there's no clear cut nations to be talked about. Everyone has fucked everyone else over as much as they could for the most part. Again, I have no problem with helping the disavantage people within a society, I just don't see taking the differences of ancestors as metric as a healthy or even logical way to do it.

3. It's the Jews fault of course. BURN THEM! Muahahahah!

It's no ones fault. Please, you're much more intolerant in some aspects than the people you attack.

But again, I agree parents can be pretty awfull. Thankfully even this is already, and has been for awihle, a declining problem. But cut them some slack too. People generarily like the idea of their bloodlines going on, I can't fault them for that :P

5. It's not simply remorse. It's persecution when you tell people they should be ashamed and guilty ridden, and you have very much been demonizing the mainstream this entire topic while making minorities to be always exempt of any bad intention. You're essentially trying to do a role reversal and hoping that will remedy the situation. That's why I mentioned earlier the focus should be tolerance, not shame and guilty.

See, you seem to believe that making people ashamed of their "heritage" (it varies what exactly they should be ashamed of depending on which minority you are defending) and feeling guilty is a good defence for those things not to be repeated.

I disagree with that. A couple points:

First, you're essentially telling people they are the same as their ancestors and also responsible, even people who disagree with those things done in the past. That's the shortest way to loose an ally (luckly you won't create an enemy most times since people are relatively calm nowadays). You shouldn't be pissing people who are helping you because of some non-practical pseudo-issue.

Also, people who are not already pretty warm to you and people who value "their" past will only get more offended and more angry. Expecting shame and fear to constantly keep people in check is also risk and tormenting, which sucks. It's just too prone to backfiring.

The second point I want to make now is that since people have pretty much the same nature and in many (not all of course) cases the victim would have gladly switched sides with the prepretator, you're not only just trying to put a portion of people in check (the ones that succeeded in fuking others up), you're also letting other people who have essentially the same nature go by with no mechanism to stop them from doing anything.

More than that, by painting them as the poor little victims completely exempt of any fault or evil and the other guys as the big bad you create a pretty fucked up mentality that actually raises the chances of them doing something similar (albeit different) to some other group (not even necessarily their former opressors).

It's just not a healthy attitude overall. Much better is to make everyone, no matter which group(s) they fit in, aware of the necessity for acceptance and respect. Trying to suppres peoples feelings, making them ashamed and forcing them to negate such feelings is never gonna be a good strategy, it's not even healthy. On the other hand, if people learn to live side by side with that which they find different as long as both respect each other, you not only eliminate self-anguish, you eliminate prejudice and discrimination, solving the practical side of the issue in a much healtier and more stable way as well as preventing new cases much better.

sapphi_snake said:

Faxanadu said:

Jay520 said:
Hopefully the girls run around half-naked!

This is Brazil we are talking about.

OT: Dont they already have a straight parade? I recall it is called "carnaval".

They do actually. Thing is, heterosexual 'events' are seen as so normalized, that people never even take notice of them anymore.

6. Yup, it's a real shame gays are not allowed anywhere near carnaval. Imagine how cool would it be if they were pretty accepted there, actually part of the thing, able to express themselves. Woudn't it be even cooler if you even had heteros dressing as the opposite sex and ect?

Oh well, one can dream. Or simply wake up and actually experience carnaval:)

1. Well, in some palces discrimination against gays is pretty much an ongoing reality. Such a place is Romania, where the overwheliming majority of the people think gays should be sent to prison (not kidding ,they actually made a poll on it). Heck, even in the US in some parts you'll get lynched if people elarn you're gay. And in most states it's legal to fire someone just for being gay. Then there's a lack of marriage rights, adoption (not 'understandable' either ), psychological torture etc.

And yes, atheists are also persecuted. This is the fault of christians, but we'll leave this for another topic.

2. If a majority group persecutes a minority group, the minority group needs special protection from the majority. Such attitudes (persecution) do not disappear overnoght. There's also the thing that pas persecution leads to current problems.

3. Sorry, I can't not fault them for that behavior. There are just things that regardless of the circumstances are wrong to do. And kids have no obligation to 'continue the bloodline'. Man, people who have kids are so selfish.

5. Well, the mainstream often is 'evil' and oppressive.

The thing about the 'shame' and 'guilt' is they're actually the words used by racists when denigrating people who are not racists. The point is to tell people that what their acestors did was wrong, and they shouldn't immitate them. There's nothing wrong with that, no?

And of course people should get along regardless of differences, but I wonder if the people who don't see that as something obvious can actually learn.

You also should not accuse former slaves that they 'would've done the same thing if they had the chance'. It's really baseless, and insulting.

6. Hey, I was just pointing out that it's a heterosexual celebration.

Nice, you're back.

1. Well, this conversation is long, so it's easy to forget a bit of the context, but I was talking about the reality in Brazil, and more specifically in well-urbanized areas.

And with all that going on in Romania, how the hell could you ever call this corner of the world backward?

About atheists, people at large have more problems with atheists than gays, so does it really matter whose fault it is? The situation is comparable.

2. The "special protection" should be based on the actual need of people not some part of the past or it creates stupid things like the situation being discussed with more scholarship for black people.

3. It's kinda built into the system you know. Passing your genes on and all that. But really, how can you not get that the sentence "Whose fault is it that the parents are following a hate-filled ideology that has nothing to do with reality" is pretty intolerant and filled with prejudice?

5. Bleh, the mainstream is usually the one with more means to be "evil". Just remember in most parts of the worlds the mainstream of today has once been the oppressed people in the past.

No problem in telling people what their ancestors did was wrong, but the focus should be on what was done and why it's wrong, not on the ancestors part, it shouldn't aim for shame. I do think people (well, in general) can learn to accept others, at least that has been the trend, hasn't it?

It's insulting to dead people? Or is it insulting to the people now because it insults their ancestors? Either way, it's surely not baseless. History shows that's most often the case, and it's specially likely when you had africans selling africans as slaves to the white men. It's a logical position.

6. How so if not only heteros, but also homos and bis are allowed to show their sexuality and take part in the thing? Sure you see more heterosexuals than otherwise, but there simply are more heterosexuals then otherwise. Carnaval is not about a sexual orientation.

Oh, about spy movies, it's not like the most popular raps are made by "gangsters", much less for gangsters and exploring genuine gangster issues. I wouldn't be surprised if such rap was considered stupid by actual "gangsters."