Ann Coulter says welfare policies responsible for looting....

[Reasonable]

badgenome said:

Reasonable said:

I'd disagree it's a huge part of the picture.  The number of people cheating that severly - i.e having kids, etc. - is small compared to the number of people fairly using the welfare system in the UK.  I'm pretty sure the lingering effects of the class system and other much longer term aspects of British history, coupled with other more important more recent factors all have a larger effect than the welfare system.

I'd say the cheating of the welfare system by some is more of a symptom than a cause and also is more down to the system being open to cheating than anything else.  TBH I think any system that can be exploited will be, from the exploitation of of the UK's welfare system to the exploitation in the US of the overly deregulated and uncontrolled financial investment system.

In short, people will often exploit any social or commercial system for their own benefit if given the chance.

Based on data points I get the impression that we should be seeing a lot more rioting/looting in a lot of other countries if having a major welfare system was a huge part of the picture.

As a final point I'm fairly confident that in general UK citizens haven't been conditioned to be "welfare queens" at all in any pervasive sense.  Again, other factors in certain demographics have given rise to that situation and the welfare system just happens to be one of many systems such people will try and exploit.

I do agree that people will find a way to exploit any system, but the welfare system seems far more given to abuse than any other. For one thing it, has a corrupting influence on both the citizenry and the government. The people figure out that they can - per Alexander Tyler - vote themselves largess out of the public treasury, and politicians are only too glad to indulge them in it, and it's only a matter of time before the whole scheme collapses. For another, even if we agree that it's a fine system in theory and put aside any concerns one might have about how just it is for the productive class to subsidize the lives of the unproductive, in practice it is folly to expect any government (especially today's bloated bureaucracies) to properly administrate it. But maybe I've just become cynical after seeing one too many stories like this.

Also, I don't think the problem with the financial system in the US is that it's too deregulated. On the contrary, the housing bubble and personal debt crisis were actually stoked by the government demanding that, if a bank wants to open a new branch or take part in a merger, they will have to relax lending standards to make it easier for minorities to get loans. So the banks figured out a way to make that work to their advantage... at least until it all blew up in everyone's face, at which point they were bailed out by the government and no one really learned their lesson.

I agree with that to an extent and also feel pretty cynical about much today if I'm honest - as you note the world seems filled with information tailor made to make you so.

I'm just pointing out - and it's maybe a fine line - that in the UK specifically the Welfare state almost certainly wasn't a huge contributor to producing the people rioting/looting and the recent situation.   The continued fallout from the former very rigid class system and changing world status of the country, coupled with recent political failings with regard to expense fraud, explosive and recent multi-culturalism, a consumer/celebrity led public image and long term issues of poverty and conflict between classes, the on/off sub-culture criminal elements and of course the current austerity measures/spending cuts and fallout from the global recession all play a much larger part.

As you youself imply in your response, the extent to which our controlling bodies have become bloated and mismanaged probably plays a bigger part, too.

I don't see any easy way out - but simply removing a system which does support a lot of people who genuinely and fairly need it isn't going to help in my view.  I see a welfare state - and okay I'm probably European biased in terms of familiarity - as a key pillar of a modern democratic country.

What I also see is that, with large population (UK relative to size and with many large civic centres), unclear policing policies (for the welfare state I mean) and a culture already in place geared to exploit it thanks to the countries history, the challenge is to keep the welfare state working in the intended manner, and to reduce abuse of its provisions.  Sadly that would appear to be easier said than done.

What I find even more bizzare with respect to the looting is how many people identified so far had no actual reason - by that I mean they were not all deprived, poor or unemployed (not that being so excuses it anyway) but that many turned out to be employed or perfectly capable of buying what they want.

I guess I just find it amazing that people basically like myself simply took advantage when you would have thought their social position would have precluded it.