Sri Lumpa said:
So what? The point is not whether the one supposedly giving the apparition restricted it to other religions/branches but whether people following other religions/branches would accept them as genuine. If your point was that hell is a genuine place in catholicism then having that apparition accepted by the catholic church supports it; if your point was that hell is a genuine place in christianity then you need to support it with something accepted by most branches of christianity, not with a catholic miracle.
Which was my point.
It is not an excuse for the immorality of the old testament as both humans and the law he subjected them to were created by him. If he did not want to go against his will he should have created us with the ability to understand his law.
This is my understanding of that part of the bible but player1x3 had a different interpretation.
But that's the thing. Believing in god shouldn't matter either way, what should matter is if you do good for its own sake. That doing good for goodness' sake isn't enough but you have the additional arbitrary requirement of believing makes this system IMO immoral as it is not about being moral but about believing.
Mostly because of the lack of imagination of those describing heaven. When artists and preachers describe hell it is full of fire and brimstone and a multitude of very imaginative activities to make you pass the time I also find the idea of neverending bliss (and neverending pain) strange as our minds are very adept at acclimatising to continuous sensations. It is because we both have moments of happiness and moments of sadness that we know how to really appreciate the happy times. It is because we have moments where we work hard and moments where we rest that we can appreciate the difference. Variety is the spice of life but all descriptions of heaven I have ever encountered are the epitome of blandness.
And I took it that way, but the message i get from christianity is one of a powerful being wanting us to be in an abusive relationship with him where we have to serve and worship him and if we don't we get abuse part. I respect much more those sects of christianity that believe that those not accepted in heaven have their soul destroyed as you then have a gift (life on earth) and if you are deemed worthy you get a bigger gift (heaven) but if not you simply do not get the bigger gift and thus your being ceases to exist. It is simply the non-granting of a second gift instead of punishing for having the wrong belief. A punishment that is disproportionate to the crime as the punishment has no end. It is even worse than getting waterboarded for the rest of your life as a punishment for jaywalking. |
but when they try to describe heaven it is all playing a harp on a cloud and... and... and I am sure there are more to the descriptions but that it is the only activity that is impressed in our cultural mind is rather telling. If heaven is merely bliss with nothing to do then what is the point? If it is like a continuous religious service then count me out as I find those way too boring and pandering.
You speak of a catholic miracle because Mary is associated with Catholicism or Christianity in general. That´s why i mentioned that it wasn`t made with a religion in mind. It`s for everyone. Of course some might reject if they are part of a religion that doesn`t see Mary as mother of Jesus/God.
I spoke of understanding with "" because it was not to be read as an intellectual ability or lack of it. It`s more on a broader sense: understanding with heart and mind. But i won`t speak too much of it because that would be putting words on God`s mouth and, as Jesus, said, their hearts were hard - to understand.
"But that's the thing. Believing in god shouldn't matter either way, what should matter is if you do good for its own sake. That doing good for goodness' sake isn't enough but you have the additional arbitrary requirement of believing makes this system IMO immoral as it is not about being moral but about believing."
But believing doesn`t exist per se. With belief you also have love. It`s like understanding where good comes from and doing it because you know it comes from God and how it`s important for Him and in a sense, for you. What saves you is not just doing good, because you are born that way, it`s your relationship with God. Morality is just a part of it.
What i do know about heaven is, as Jesus told, it`s very different from what we have here. I honestly don`t what we do in heaven. The concepts of neverending pain or joy are really something we can`t comprehend because it`s totally different from our lives.
I never said that souls get destroyed, if that`s what you are thinking i said, if not, i`m sorry for misreading you.
Being one with God it`s not about serving and worshiping as people think. All God wants is for people to love Him as He loves us too. I do understand why people speak of worship, but believe me, it`s completely different when actually have faith and live that faith. You are actually to first to "worship" without anyone asking you for anything.
You should never forget how different it is dealing with God. It`s not like dealing with another person.
You also get heaven forever, not just hell. People have their whole lifes to make a choice and you also have people on your side to guide you, the Bible, miracles, apparitions, signs in your life. If after this you still say no... Aim your eyes and heart at God and heaven and that`s all that matters.
