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Farmageddon on 08 July 2011
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Kasz216 said:
Farmageddon said:
Player1x3 said:
Farmageddon said:
sapphi_snake said:
Farmageddon said:

Some believe we're just born and make all those concepts up as we go :P

When it comes to a single world religion, I really, really, really don't see that happening (besides maybe on an "official" level). Only shot would be if that one religion was non-religious. I don't think even extreme supernatural intervention would change that. I mean, assuming they don't just wipe our minds.

Also, Player1x3, I see your vision of humans is as if we're removed from nature, special. I think this kind of argument about human nature can't really be settled between people with a creationist view and people with a more naturalistic one.

How can this be?

Well, I just don't see how, moving forward, will there be a time whithout people skeptical of religions and gods and etc. I don't see atheists and agnostics and laVey satanists and whatnot suddenly disappearing, specially on a global government where flow of information would be (presumably) very high.

As long as there's religion there'll also be the ortodox types and the "I believe in something but don't fit any of this crap" Wiccan-type minorities. It just seems like this to me.

Player1x3 said:


What? No I dont believe in creationism, I simply believe that we have free will and that we make our choices but in the end our choices make us(shamelessly stolen from Bioshock), they determine weather or not we are greedy, destrctive etc etc...

Well, what makes you believe our free will is so absolute and detached from nature then? If we're products of nature, so is our free will. And if our choice determines what we are, what determines them? Our "free will"? If our personality plays a role in determining our actions, and to these actions we attribute lables, why not carry them over for our personalities?

Of course I'm not defending we're static, there's a lot of feedback and forth, but we are born with all of that in us, otherwise it would never surface.
asz216 said:

Really the whole free choice vs divine will thing is better questioned under the "God knows what choice your going to make so how is it free will arguement" that is made against evangelicism and that suggests full true ominpotent god.

Though even that isn't really a contradiction.  Since if I travel to the future one week and find that you decide to have a diet coke over a coke, then go back to my time....

I've in no way negated your free will.

 

 

Yeah, but the "proper" way would be to include the act of creation on that criticism. Simply knowing the future doesn't infringe on free will (whatever that really is), but if you're creator, all powerfull and all knowing then not only you could choose to create differently, you know how that would affect the entire future. So God would be essentially deciding on all of our actions at the moment of creation, thus negating free will.

Of course that can be countered. You could go with something weird like every thought of God constitutes a reality in itself, but there's a better explanation that actually answers a lot more questions that is to say "God's atemporal". I mean, ok, it breaks all logic down in a sense and makes further inquiry kinda hard, (but hey, isn't that the definition of an all powerfull being? "Something capable of telling all logic and knowlodge to just GTFO"?), but other than  that it's actually quite elegant.

Not really, because god gave you free will in christian theology.  He SPECIFICALLY created man with free will and the ability to choose so that we could choose.

AS for the got being atemporal thing....

It doesn't really break all logic down as you might think... as actual current temoral theory is (I believe) that time is an illusion and it actually is all happening at the same time.

It only seems linear because it's the only way we can perceive it with our inferior consiousness.  If we had advanced brains we would be like the wormhole aliens on DS9, if you've ever seen deep space 9.



Cause and consequence. If you take a linear time where God at the creations chooses to create (as in, has options, since he's all powerfull) and knows the consequences of each possible initial state, then there's no room for free will. Unless of course God temporarily blindfolds Himself and trhow the proverbial dice and calls that free will, but that brings a whole new load of problems, doesn't it? And yeah, it doesn't really break logic down, but it's kinda hard to think about consequences without time, thus the "in a sense". As you put it, it transcends us (in deeper ways than omni-something) and is really hard to even talk about, as our language is adapted to our existence. I mean, come on, 'time is an illusion and everything is really happening at the same time'? It sounds awfull. Edit: Vgchartz formating seems to have proken to me, so sorry for the blocky text.