Will a Nuclear Weapon of Mass Destruction Be Used This Decade?

[Griffin]

brendude13 said:

Griffin said:

It was no insult, its to do with your clear lack of knowledge on the subject.  Japan would have been completely destroyed if the bombs were not used.  The US would have continued their bombing and laying mines across all Japanese held ports and shipping regions.  The USSR would have continued their agression to mainland Japan where they would have raped and looted the country.  The Japanese would have fought to the last person, every man, woman and child would have fought the allied forces, before millions would take their lives over what they were told would happen to them.  Totals deaths could have gone as high as 20mil. 

And you talk about wanting to save lives, what about the 20million civilians the Japanese killed.  Japan commited some of the worst war crimes known to man. 

And the allied bombing over Japan and Germany was much worse then that of the atomic bombs.  The Atomic bombs saved more then 10 fold what normal bombing would have.

I'm sorry, but who the hell managed to convince you that the entire population of Japan was involved in some suicidal cult? You say I have a lack of knowledge of the subject and then you claim 20 million Japanese civilians were killed? The number of Japanese civilians killed in WW2 doesn't even touch 1 million, the atom bombs could easily make up between a quarter and a half of the Japanese civilian death toll.

Your logic doesn't even make sense, if they were as delusional as you say they were then they wouldn't have surrendered after the atomic bombs were dropped.

Let me show you a picture.

 

This is a Japanese soldier...surrendering...crazy isn't it?

And funnily enough, I can't find any evidence of children fighting the Americans to the death.

And try and deny it all you like, but the Japanese were on the brink of collapse, you claim that every citizen would fight to the death, well that's bullshit, they would need supplies for that, and they didn't. The Japanese could have probably held out for another year before they hard to start fighting with fists. The Japanese leaders were considering peace and preparing for negotiation before the bombs were dropped. After doing some digging around on the internet I have found many sources which say that Hirohito contacted Roosevelt in late 1944 to negotiate surrender with similar terms to the Potsdam Decleration, but it was ignored.

At least you got something right, yes the Soviets were bastards, and yes they did rape and loot areas they invaded. But the dropping of the atom bombs didn't stop them from invading, the Soviets invaded Manchuria THE DAY the atomic bombs were dropped for christs sake.

Yes the Japanese did inexusable things to the Chinese, but like I said before, it doesn't justify the murders of a quarter of a million people.

The allied bombings of Japan and Germany did have a greater death toll, but they weren't "much worse" than Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The stategic bombings were prolonged, it happened over years, death was pretty much instant for the vast majority of people who were caught up in the bombings. Like I said before, I am still disgusted at how many civilians were killed in the allied bombings on Germany, in no way do I support it.

But it isn't even on the same scale as the atom bombs, it's one bomb, which was dropped without warning and it levelled an entire city. Like I said in my other post, the people who were instantly killed were lucky, the people who survived the bombs suffered the most, it is probably the most inhumane way you can die.

You poke fun at my age, you disrespect me and accuse me of not having any knowledge of the subject, and then you claim that the Japanese murdered 20 million of their own citizen's and that the majority of the population of Japan were delusional and suicidal cult members?

I'll make this easy for you, don't reply.

I never said 20mil Japanese were killed, i said they killed 20mil Civilians.  Regarding the other number thats the possible 20mil killed by the full on invasion of Japan which is further support by the post kasz made.

And the post by Kasz talks about much of what i was going to post.  Regarding the "Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps".  And i already posted in this thread before that Japan refused to surrender just one week before the bombs were dropped.  Japan was not going to surrender and was being lead by the military for the most part.

Lets look at the bombing of Tokyo for comparison.

The figure of roughly 100,000 deaths, provided by Japanese and American authorities, both of whom may have had reasons of their own for minimizing the death toll, seems to me arguably low in light of population density, wind conditions, and survivors' accounts. With an average of 103,000 inhabitants per square mile (396 people per Hectare) and peak levels as high as 135,000 per square mile (521 people per hectare), the highest density of any industrial city in the world, and with firefighting measures ludicrously inadequate to the task, 15.8 square miles (41 km²) of Tokyo were destroyed on a night when fierce winds whipped the flames and walls of fire blocked tens of thousands fleeing for their lives. An estimated 1.5 million people lived in the burned out areas

The surreder of Japanese forces was also not common.  Lets look at some numbers

Battle for Tinian.  8,010 killed 313 captured.

Battle for Guam. 18,040+ killed, 485POW's.

Battle for Iwo Jima. 21,844 killed , 216 captured.

Battle for Saipan. 24,000 killed, 5,000 suicides, 921 prisoners,  22,000 civilians dead (mostly suicides)

Now we can look at this the Emperor himself ordering his people to kill themselves.  "At the end of June, Hirohito sent out an imperial order encouraging the civilians of Saipan to commit suicide"

 

I still stand by my post and everything i said.   The using of the atomic weapons was the right thing to do.