| sapphi_snake said: @Joelcool7: I love how people are commenting about this guy and how he was meant to be gay based on how he acted as a child. I have to say the premise of this experiment was absurd. The premise was absurd, but it was the popular belief back then, and you can blame society's heterosexism for it. Trying to "change" him was wrong, and I'm not referring to the homosexual part. So what if he liked playing with dolls and other girly things? There's nothing wrong with that! The ideea that boys should act a certain way and gilrs should act a certain way is nothing but a cultural myth. I played with dolls when I was little too, and there was nothing no one could do to stop me. Now my audio on my computer is not working so I can't view the videos. But from the sound of it the doctor was trying to cure homosexuality by preventing what he thought to be a major cause. However I bet that this kid may never have been gay at all. Infact telling him from a young age that he was going gay, probably had a profound psychological effect on the child. He was never told that he was gay. He was only told things like "act this way, not that way", and when he'd act the way he was told not to he'd be punished. The result is that he grew up with a strong sense that he's "different", and that society wants doesn't like the way he is and that he should "change" (something that's impossible, as you can be no one else but yourself). It's quite hurtful to go your whole life thinking that everyone considers the way you are to be "wrong", "defective", and that they'll actually go as far as abusing you to try to change you. I know a gay person who grew up with a mom who told him from very young that she never wanted a boy she wanted a girl. She dressed him in skirts and raised him as a girl, years later he came out of the closet and she was so happy. Fact is do i think he was born gay? No I don't but having that psychological pressure to be gay would definatly alter your viewpoint of yourself. Psychological pressure to be gay? This seems like another one of your impossible-to-believe stories. Also, the guy from the experiment definately felt no pressure to be gay, but quite the opposite. The experiment was about crushing human diversity and trying to uniformize people. Now I find it funny that the doctor was found to be gay. What does that really matter? Wouldn't that have made him an expert on homosexuality as he claimed to be? I don't know why that was even used in the article, its not really useful information. So the expert on homosexuality was infact gay. So what? It shows that if his "treatment" would've worked, he wouldn't be gay himself. The doctor's treatment could have actually driven this child to believe he was gay whether he was biologically or not. No, the experiment could've not done this. Look at what scientists and doctors are willing to do to prove their thesis. To prove their theories, scientists will do all kinds of horrible things to advance the name of science. To argue this man wasn't a scientist is sort of laughable. He just had methodology which is unnacceptable to modern society. But for the 70's he didn't really do much that wasn't being done by other scientists. Back then doctors were considered "gods in white coats". However, this particular case isn't as much science's fault as it is the fault of religion and conservatism. The guy was funded and supported by conservative christian organisations, such as the Family Research Council, and he went on to be a proeminent memeber the ex-gay organisation NARTH. This is an example of what happens when religion interferes with science. I'm actually pretty sure the leading "scientists" who participated in this experiment were all Christians. This experiment would never have taken place, had there not been no pressure from Christians and conservatives to "fix" gays, as they were and are the people who claim that homosexuality is wrong, and that gays need "fixing". Look at Autism for example. Doctors tried electrocuting patients , frying their brains. They tried solutary confinement and lobotamy. Fact is those were also doctors and scientists.
So this one guy doing this to a gay kid, really Sapphi what about all the scientists and doctors who did the same horrible things or even worse to other mental patients. I find it funny that in all these years I have never seen a thread about how these kinds of treatments were used to deal with other mental patients. But when its done to a gay kid suddenly its a huge topic and everyone cares. I found this article, and I decided to post it. Had I found a similar article about the treatment of mental patients, I would've posted that too. The big difference is that experiments like this are still practiced today on gays. If you read about the experiences of people who survived ex-gay therapy, you'll find out that organisations who try to help gays "change" actualyl still use elctroshock treatment, and other abusive methods. While all this should be illegal because (a) there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, (b) you can not change someone'e sexual orientation, and |
these treatments are essentially torture (however due to pressure from conservative christian organisations, these treatments are not banned, and the organisations practicign them are not closed down).I also found a blog of a christian minister who "helped" people who were gay "change", and he was gloating how he was torturing his latest "patient", and how he was keeping him restrained against his will (the kid wanted to live, but the minister was keeping him locked in a room, and wasn't letting him out or have any contact with the outside world).
I find it funny when ever one of my stories conflicts with your beliefs you automatically call their legitamacy into question. Their are many psychological things that can change a man's outlook on life, psychology could easily change someones sexual orientation. Also I couldn't hear the audio so I never watched the videos. But being phsyically punished every time you do something, would effect you psychologically. You would either rebel and do exactly what you were not supposed to do, or youd break and conform to what was being forced on you.
In this case he could have easily decided screw society screw my parents, that doctor I will do what ever they don't want me too. This could lead him to a more homosexual lifestyle. Now you say that psychology does not effect sexual orientation. Now tell me do you consider Metrosexuality a sexual orientation? Do you consider it biological? Being Metro what made me this way was the lack of male influences. My dad was never around by court order, my other sibling was a younger sister. The majority of my friends were girls. This effected how I grew up and made me Metro. Now I fought the idea I was Metro for a very long time, untill it turned out everyone thought I was gay and those that didn't thought I was Metro. Infact I don't know a single friend who doesn't think I'm Metro. So now I admit it. But fact is psychology effects sexual orientation in cases, maybe not all cases but psychology plays a very big role in everything a human does.
Doctors and scientists these days are still considered God's in white coats. Every doctor thinks they know everything and they will go to great lengths to prove they do. Scientists today still do all kinds of things to prove their points and theories. Whether it is experimenting on humans or animals.
Again blaming the Christians and Conservatives for this experiment and all lifes problems. Your forgetting the horrible experiments and things done to human patients by athiest doctors, and other religious doctors. Instead of saying "This experiment was bad" you feel compelled to say "This experiment is bad and its all because of Christians". I don't know why you always have to blame everything on Christians. Would you have honestly posted a story about a mental patients brutal treatment at the hands of an athiest doctor? No you wouldn't. Fact is this isn't a Christian issue, scientists and doctors across the world have done these same horrible things in the name of science for hundreds to thousands of years. But you wouldn't write about those cases because they don't agree with your agenda.
Now about the horrific fact that these practices are still carried out on gays. I myself was brought to a homeopathic nurse to cure my autism. I was strapped to a bed and had these weird strobes put over my head. Now it was nothing like the movies I barely felt the shocks but it was very interesting to see such a practice still being carried out (Last year) on people with mental dissabilities. Up until the late 60's their were cases of lobotomies being carried out here in Canada. Infact today lobotomies are still being performed on epileptic patients and other people with mental dissabilities. Now these are being carried out by doctors today against people with mental dissabilities. These aren't Conservative Christian's pushing a hidden agenda.
Now is having your brain scrambled any worse then what this doctor did in the name of science to cure this man of homosexuality? The horrible things you mention that the Christian Pastor was doing to cure a young boy of homosexuality. Step inside a psych ward. Patients are tied to beds, but in pitch black rooms with soft walls. They are drugged beyond belief they are subjected often to abuse by workers. They are confined like prisoners. I have known people who went into psych wards for schizophrenia and he spent a whole week in a room with no light just sitting by himself.
Now today homeopaths and many doctors use many methods to cure mental illnesses. Many far worse then what this doctor subjected that child too. Do I think the doctor did something wrong, yes. However I think you using the story just to vent how pissed you are at conservatives and Christians, thats pretty wrong in itself.
I am highly offended that you ignore all the stories these days of people being treated just as bad if not worse by the medical field. Also what about all the other suicides? What about the 3,616 suicides each year in the US. Why is this single case so important? Thats just the US consider how many suicides their are each year accross the earth?
Almost everyone commiting suicide has been driven to that point. What about the bullying of people of all beliefs carried out by no not just Christians but everyone else. The pink shirt rally in Canada is a perfect example this one kid got bullied all the time because he had a pink shirt. So finally some of the highschool students noticed and wore pink shirts as well and it soon became a big deal to wear a pink shirt.
Many victims of suicide have been tormented their whole lives. Christians aren't the only ones out their bullying. Infact even Athiests bully and agnostics and people of all beliefs. But you will only care about the few cases caused by Christian's. Its like the Bible said about the man who points out the splinter of wood in his neighbours eye while ignoring the log in his own.
Fact is yah some Christian's screw up, but their are thousands of cases of suicide and other autrocities caused by non-Christians across the world.
So to summorize your and I's debate
- People still do horrible things to try and fix people. Lobotomies, electroshock therapy forced confinement tie people down. all of these methods are still legal and carried out by both Christians and non-Christians
-a handful of gay guys commit suicide each year, the news and gay movement go nutz while the other 3,000+ suicide victims get ignored by the general public. If your not gay your suicide doesn't matter to most people
I could go on but am tired so I'm out. But this is why I get so peived. People don't seem to care about the lobotomies or the electroshock therapy dished out to Autistic patients and other mental patients, but when a gay guy gets it to treat his homosexuality suddenly its a big deal. 3,000 people die each year of suicide but the second a gay guy kills himself it makes the news, this has to be like the sixth or so case I've heard reported in the last year.
Homosexuals are people like everyone else, they deserve no less or no more attention then is given to everyone else. A suicide victim is a suicide victim. A doctor who is Christian and carries out electroshock therapy is evil but a doctor scrambling a patients brains because he is alittle different isn't reported or seen as unbrutal.
In the end I think all these barbaric methods should become illegal, whether your a Christian doctor or not. No special treatment in the media should be given to any single individual. We should all be treated with equal dignity and respect!
-JC7
"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer
