Lots of bashing for the belief of God....

[Allfreedom99]

Final-Fan said:

Allfreedom99 said:

Final-Fan said:

Freedom, I take it from the fact that you have completely dodged answering any of highway's points, in favor of vague "meaning of life"-type rhetoric, that you in fact have no answer to his points, but cannot bear to admit it. 

I won't presume that the same is true of my post; perhaps you just ignored it since I wasn't the one you originally responded to. 

Final Fan actually no I read your post, read some of your website links and even watched your video. I just havn't responded, because I am busy during the day working and don't have much down time. probably why Im a member of only this forum so far. I will say I found those site interesting to read and the video was interesting. Im coming to you from the standpoint of, why do physics even exist? "From a singular point over time, space, matter, and energy the laws of physics and mathematics are formed." does that make sense to you? And what I was using to reply to highway was simply getting back to basics and common sense of which you seemed to imply in your last post that we shouldnt even use any common sense when trying to describe our origins. Do me a favor and answer some of the questions I asked the user,highway. Can you explain to me why murdering someone is wrong if we are all just properties of mathematics and chemical reactions? If in the beginning there was chaos then why do we have gravity?

I'm glad to hear you read my response and looked at those links. 

You said that you don't understand how someone can see beauty in what they think of as the chance product of "mathematical possibilities".  Did you look at a bunch of fractals?  Did you not see any beauty there?  (They are undeniably mathematical in nature.) 

You say I implied "that we shouldn't use common sense when trying to figure out our origins".  Well, you're exactly right!  The reason for this is that common sense, while extremely useful in our day-to-day lives, can and does fail when looking into certain areas like the birth of the universe.  (As a side note, I suppose this is why it's particularly deadly (not literally) when creationists appeal to common sense to get people to ignore science, because common sense is normally so reliable.) 

As you probably know, when you do logic from wrong assumptions (such as such-and-such being impossible due to common sense) you can go spectacularly wrong fairly quickly.  And highwaystar even says that logic itself can fail!  That is truly disturbing to me, in a way that even physics being inconsistent doesn't do.  In fact I am even now wondering if it's ANY logic or just logic that e.g. assumes that physics works the way we're used to or something.  But if there is enough evidence I will have to accept it. 

As an example of common sense not working for some areas of science, I gave that video as evidence.  What do you think of that?  Do you admit that common sense would fail, and therefore can't be trusted when speculating about the creation of the universe?  If not, why not? 

You ask me why physics exists.  I am not sure that is a question that can be fully answered, let alone whether I can do it.  But we have physics because that's the way the universe came out.  I suppose it could probably have come out differently, in which case life as it functions in this universe would probably be impossible.  But other ways of life might be possible that are impossible here. 

But here is an important point:  the "laws of physics/mathematics" WERE NOT formed.  They were never formed except for in people's imaginations.  There is just physics and mathematics as they are.  The "laws" are just ways that the universe works that people accept completely so that they are considered "laws" (in the case of physics) or a system of self-consistent number manipulation (math).  When people find out new and interesting ways to jiggle the numbers they are sometimes called "laws" because they will always come out that way and let people do interesting things.  Do you understand and agree that the "laws" are not the creation of the universe (or God) but humanity? 

As for why things were defying common sense (atomic structure etc., you say gravity but I don't know about that one) at the creation of the universe, I suppose it has to do with the extremely high energy state that things were in, and the unimaginable concentration of matter.  As for how that matter got there, as I said there is ongoing speculation about that. 

As for the question of why murder is wrong if people are just chemicals etc., I take it you are implying that without purpose (as from God) there is no point to life and we might as well just knife each other for the giggles.  Well I totally disagree with that.  I will just give you an interesting quote from an extremely interesting story you can read HERE.  It's a Harry Potter fanfiction work, but it also concentrates on scientific principles, and more importantly still, ways of thinking scientifically and ways to avoid thinking in ways that lead you astray or deceive yourself.  The human mind is a pretty murky place apparently. 

"There is no justice in the laws of Nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky. But they don't have to! We care! There is light in the world, and it is us!"

What do you think of that? 

P.S.  And I also think it's bullshit that you think you're Alex Trebek or something and all answers have to be in the form of a question before you will respond to what you disagree with. 

Ok, so going backwards on your reply in that im alex trebek demanding questions or else I refuse to respond to everything. Which by the way you did give me a laugh remembering all the saturday night live skits of will farrell doing Alex Trebek. But thats completely random and besides the point :). To answer you on this, I simply don't have time to spend every moment reading everyones posts. I do admit anything that is addresse to me I read everything. Other posts I may pick out pieces from posts and then read the ones fully that intrigue me. I also simply dont have time to try and answer everything in a reply especially the long replys you sometimes give. to be a little more personal, I work full time, have a pregnant wife, my mother law is currently living with us (YIKES!) since her husband died last year, and I try to get my video gaming in when I can of course :). Yes Im a married gamer nerd soon to be daddy. (although if you saw me I dont have the nerd look. honestly.) And yes we are all nerds here. lets admit it. Not to say everyone else on this forum dosn't have busy lives, but I personally will reply to the things that I think need to be rebuttled with the amount of time I want to spend on them. I could answer everything on your post if your willing to wait a day and a half. Your current post here has a wide range of topics of rabit trails I could go down and if I responded to everything you would probably be reading a small book. I don't want to put you through that as Im sure my beliefs are nonsense to you as well as probably commical just judging from your posts and beliefs.
I will try to make this a brief as I possibly can:

1. to answer your first paragraph. of course I saw beauty. that just shows me the capabilities of a creators design. Fractals are indeed very beautiful. It still dosn't prove that mathematics is somehow outside the concept of God's nature. So im not sure your of your point is in bringing these up.

2. Second,third,fourth paragraph. Of course I will admit that you can't always use common sense on everything. Some things in life you surely cannot make sense of. This may not be the best example, but my mind cannot comprehend infinite time but I understand what its property is. infinite time dosn't make sense to me. Neither an infinite universe, of which I understand there is a debate whether the universe is infinite or finite. I don't know for sure how far the universe expands, but we definately aren't close to finding an end and there may be no end. My mind can't comprehend something with no end to it, but I know infinite space could possibly exist. Also gravity is something that I know is hard for scientists to even comprehend. The video was very interesting as it does show that some things just dont make sense to us. I still don't see how this disproves that there is so much evidence for creation by an intelligent being.

3.fifth and sixth paragraph. The laws of physics rely on the laws of mathematics. If in our universe 1 plus 1 did not equal 2, but 3, then our universe would be a chaotic one in which physics could not transpire. The laws of mathematics say that 0 equals 0 and 1 plus 1 is definitley 2. 1 plus 1 is not sometimes 3 or sometimes 0. Excuse me but did mankind create the laws of mathematics? no. Mathematics existed in the universe before mankind existed. Physics without the laws of mathematics could not be possible. The laws of mathematics can be understood by the laws of logic no doubt. We cannot imagine the laws of logic could be any different than what they are. You cannot have both "A" and "not A" at the same time in the same relationship. The laws of logic do not contradict itself. With no laws of logic you and I could not have rational thinking and therefore would not be speaking to eachother rationally. If you change something in the laws of say mathematics or the laws of logic then all of the laws could not work in unison. They all have certain laws and properties and therefore work together perfectly. So we see laws of consistency. In consistensy and logic we see an intelligent creator. its not that hard to comprehend.

4.eighth paragraph: every human being on this planet indeed has a conscience. Indeed there are people who just kill and rape and appear to have no remorse for their actions. Those people are sick and have mental illnesses no doubt. Those people don't even know or understand what they are doing. They dont understand what life even is. You admitted to me that you have personal morals. If we truly are just properties of chemical reactions then absolutely no morals should exist. If I steal your wallet and you say I was wrong to do that then I could say my morals say that I can steal people's wallets. chemical reactions does not have morals that they live by. From this standpoint if I was to say "murder is wrong" then it should be no different than saying, "my favorite color is blue". these would all just be opinions and not accepted morality in society. Answer me this, if human beings are simply chemical accidents then why should any of us be concerned about what eachother does?  We dont get mad at baking soda for reacting with vinegar do we? This is just how chemicals act. Do you understand this?

The quote says that the universe and the stars dont care. well thats true, because they have no conscience and therefore no moral obligation to us. If a meteor falls from the universe and crushes someone it has no conscience to care indeed.I don't see how this trys to prove that there is no creator. Are you happy now that I answered virtually everything you said and had comments on them? I hope so.