highwaystar101 said:
Allfreedom99 said:
highwaystar101 said:
Allfreedom99 said:
I see there is no room for consideration from you, as well as Im sure you see there is no room for consideration from me on your views of the origin of the universe. Im sure you think my views are foolish, as I think your views are foolish. You say I am only looking through the prism of my own human intellect. But what else do we have to make sense of the universe around us other than what our human knowledge can understand? You say that there are factors we have not even discovered yet that will help us unravel the origins of the universe. What we have is human intellect and we make educated guesses on the information we have at our fingertips about the very beginning. I see design and order among chaos. All you see is chaos. Thats what you have implied.
I will never understand the atheist view as also I know atheist will never understand a theists view. I look up into our vast universe and I see beauty, and a vast cosmos of splendor. I see planets naturally orbiting their stars. I see trillions of stars among each trillions of galaxies. I see a solar eclipse take place and see that the moon aligns perfectly with our star and we have a perfect viewing platform to experience it. I look at our earth and see beauty, colors, wonderful smells, and life. I watch the sunset over the waters and can only think, how beautiful that is. I go outside on a nice warm summer day and breathe in the fresh air. I see a huge beautiful universe and a special planet that we live on and it makes me see the evidence of a designer. You look at it all and see mathematical calculations that occured by chance. You see elements that naturally just occurred with no knowledgeable force to guide them. You will never understand me. I will never understand you.
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I'm sorry, but I have to weigh in here. I've stayed out of this debate so far because theological debates tend to end with me telling people their deepest beliefs are wrong, which makes me feel bad. But I have to reply to this to defend atheism.
You paint an incredibly bleak picture of atheism. I wouldn't really consider myself much of an atheist anymore, but I don't believe in a creator by any means, so what I say is still valid.
In my current line of research I have had to learn about how light behaves (as well as the occlusion, needless to say). I could tell you, mathematically, how light behaves during an eclipse*. But because I know how the light behaves doesn't make an eclipse less spectacular. If an eclipse were to happen right now I would be staring at the beauty like everyone else. Just because I understand the physics doesn't means I can't appreciate it. In fact, if anything, I probably appreciate it more because I understand it!
You paint a bleak picture of atheism. And beyond that you paint a bleak picture of having knowledge in general!
(*In fact the sun and moon rarely line up perfectly for an eclipse like you say, and most people get solar or annular eclipses. It's a matter of perspective, not design)
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I dont mean to say an atheist is not capable of seeing beauty around them. If I offended or If thats what It seemed I was implying then it was wrong. What I am trying to say is that I dont understand how someone can look into the sky on the darkest night to see a multitude of beautiful stars and think that it all happened through chance of mathematical possibilities. I dont understand how an atheist can look into the eyes of their new born baby and think that it has no significance in this universe whatsoever. I cant understand how an atheist can believe that everything began from a singular point with no intelligent designer behind it. What I am saying is, how can beauty just happen? How is it that we even have math and science to be able to study complex theories? When a total eclipse happens it gives us a rare view of the outer linings of the sun. And I know that an eclipse is not always a full eclipse. How is it that we have color, and our eyes can see in color. I know technically it is the cones in our eyes, but how did colors just happen? Im saying I see all of these amazing elements and views in our universe and say that I can appreciate its beauty because for an intelligent being to create something so wonderful, that intelligent creator must be incredible.
I understand there is no way to measure "God" with science, because it is something in the supernatural realm. supernatural does not fit into science. What Im saying is that just by looking around you, you will see evidence of design if you allow yourself to.You can believe that everything began from a singular point with no intelligent being involved. But any human mind must see that to have matter effect matter there must be energy to effect that matter. A human mind must realize that energy does not come about from nothing. I know you probably won't, but just stop and think of the theory of in the beginning there was a "singular point", and thats where the universe began. A singular point is used in mathematics, so how would it be that a singular point had the knowledge to just appear and begin the universe?
My last point. Are you familiar with the flagellum in the human body? It is in all senses a organelle of locomotion(motor) that is attached to certain cells in many living organisms. In face some of the most basic living organisms possess these including: algae, fungi, and mosses. The base of it contains a hook like structure that acts just like a propeller and can turn clockwise or counterclockwise. This motor helps to move cells along and keep them in motion to allow for respiration and circulation. The flagellum of these cells is a important component for life.When you see a graph of a flagellum you see everything a motor would possess. Is this not a possibility of design? how can matter,which possesses no intelligence, cause a flagellum motor to form on these cells?
How is it that there are so many complexities that exist and then someone can claim that everything began without any intelligence in existence to begin the universe? As I said earlier an atheist cannot understand my belief, and I cannot understand an atheists.
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First point:
Just because I can explain existence through "chance", doesn't mean that I can't appreciate anything or see the significance in it (after all, these feelings are chemical). To say that you need a God to feel the significance of life just doesn't register, because you don't.
First point, part 2:
As for your colour argument (but addressing in a more general sense). Colours are just different electromagnetic frequencies of energy perceived by photosensitive cells. We perceive the colours which are most beneficial to us, as a product of evolution (there are a whole host of colours we can't see). Other creatures do not see colour in the same way we do. Reduced colour perception (from us) allows a predator to hunt better, increased colour perception (from us) allows sexually dimorphic animals to choose partners, and so on.
Colours, and how and why we can see them, can be best explained by physics and biology, without the need for a creator. It's the same for pretty much anything.
Second point:
So what you're saying is that there is no way to measure God, but ultimately he is responsible for everything in the Universe. If that's the case, then evidence for God should be found in every atom, surely.
And I don't believe all (well, not all) the energy and matter just "appeared" from nothing, I want to know why it appeared (I know hypotheses, but I don't know for certain). There are several hypotheses, each more plausible than a God to me (and some hypotheses more plausible than others)
Third point:
The whole "Flagellum is irreducibly complex" argument has been put to rest so many times now that I'm not even sure why it still exists. Well, I know exactly why it exists. It's because of the people who follow the likes of Kent Hovind or Michael Behe take the argument and never question it.
Nothing in life is irreducibly complex. If you want to learn about the flagellum or any other "complex" organ of phenomenon, and I mean genuinely learn, pick up a text book; don't listen to what Michael Behe has to say, it's pretty much always a bad argument.
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This is the point I start feeling bad about myself! I don't enjoy doing this.
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