Final-Fan said:
DélioPT said:
1. I`m sorry i didn`t mentioned it earlier as i honestly didn`t even thought of that. And i`m sorry for not, in the conversation, stating that God is fair and would never forget those kind of details.
Actually that part of seeing and then believing reminds of the movie Constantine? You saw it? Constantine alreadt saw God, yet he wasn`t set to go to heaven for the sole reason that seeing does not equal believing. Like Thomas did with Jesus.
"You go to Hell unless you make the active choice of taking a "leap of faith" and believing in God even though you have no sufficient worldly justification for believing God exists"
It did, otherwise you wouldn`t mention "have no sufficient worldly justification", this isn´t the same as no proof whatsoever, that`s why i mentioned that these highlighted words word subjective, yet very important.
It`s the same as for the case i referreed a while ago of apparitions and miracles. Your reaction, just for example, was to descredit it. You knew about God, yet you still chose not - for whatever reason.
If you "know" - proved beyong doubt; see by yourself - than the leap of faith has no meaning.
Just to give an example of what i was trying to convey: it`s like when people are afraid to get hurt and avoid relationships. You have the person in front of you that you obviously don`t know completely, yet you must find courage, forget fears and take a leap of faith.
This isn`t a literal example, it`s to show a little bit better what faith means.
But please let me get this straight. Those with non-belief of today aren`t the same that were never talked to about God or Jesus like 3000 year ago. For example, a man of that time did not know God nor never heard about Him, and that`s not the same as a person who has no belief despite knowing who He is, Jesus and being "explained" about Him and still don`t believe. There`s a context for that non-belief part.It`s a really rouch example, but it`s just to show the difference.
If you were concious of this, ignore me then.
2. God made us all, not just Hitler. But that means nothing, no one is set for a path, we make our paths.
You still don`t seem to understand that if you are completely free (free will and liberty) you are completely responsible for the result of your actions. You can`t put not even a single ounce of blame on someone else if you accept that you are free.
Hitler was the sole responsible for his actions as he decided on his own free will.
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1.
They are different, and yet ...
I see the leap of faith you describe as a yawning chasm. It's like the difference between "you've been dating someone for a year and they want to marry you, yes/no?" and "you signed up for a dating service and it says there's a good match for you, will you marry them yes/no?" I see the various religions asking me to believe in God as the latter. I don't have any reason to believe all the stuff in their holy texts is accurate depictions of real events. Hell, even THEY'll admit they don't have concrete proof. They just believe, and they want me to too. Well no thanks, I'll just find out when I die and if God exists and isn't a humongous dick then the worst I should get is Purgatory if I've been a decent guy. And if God is one, then I doubt my odds were too good anyway.
When I said "sufficient justification" I did so because if I'd said ANY justification then you could just point to the Bible. Fact is, you can't prove that any of the God-stuff happened. There is NOTHING you can honestly call "proof", otherwise religious people would be shutting up atheists left and right. It's all faith.
2.
You can't say Hitler bears any responsibility for the murders the Auschwitz guard committed and then turn around and say God doesn't. At least, not without being a huge hypocrite.
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1. No can honestly say that they know everything about God; that they absolutely know or compreehend God, not even the Church does that.
There is proof, it`s not just what some people would like to have. You have the Bible, you have apparitions, miracles and your and other`s personal lifes as manifestations of God. AS i said before, even those who when Jesus lived, even after performing miracles, still didn`t believe Him.
It`s a human thing, not a matter of proof.
Can i show the world something that absolutely proves something? No more than the next person. Faith is a matter of the heart, not of the mind.
2.
Hitler was responsible for initiating a movement of hate and with that, fueling that movement with more than just words. Those who joined him are also responsible in their own ways, for their own actions.
