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DélioPT on 04 May 2011
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Final-Fan said:

1.  I think there is a contradiction going on, or at least I want to nail down which of two contradictory cases is true in your opinion.  The following assumes you go to either Heaven or Hell with no third option, so please correct me if you are now saying there's a third option. 

A.  You go to Heaven unless you make the active choice of rejecting God.  You KNOW God is real, you just hate him or can't handle the fact of his existence or whatever.*

B.  You go to Hell unless you make the active choice of taking a "leap of faith" and believing in God even though you have no sufficient worldly justification for believing God exists. 

* And by the way, I'm not saying you're guilty of this, but a lot of people go around saying that atheists know in their hearts that God is real and they can't stand it so they reject him.  Well fuck those guys, they don't know what's in my heart.  I don't think there's good reason for me to believe God is really out there instead of being something imagined by our ancestors (like the four elements) and perpetuated by culture and tradition. 

2. 
"I would argue that you can't absolve someone of deliberately setting up horrible actions just because there was someone else with free will further down the line."

"I mean, I doubt Hitler personally murdered any Jews, and if he did it wasn't many; does that mean he bears no responsibility for the Holocaust? "

Let's say Guy A sets up a situation that he knows for a fact will result in Guy B killing Guy C.  Would you say that Guy A bears responsibility for Guy C's death, or that he is blameless? 


1. There is not a 3rd option to heaven or hell. There is - and i didn`t think of this before - place or places where there is purification/acceptance to enter heaven, like purgatory for instance.
Still, this doesn`t change the fact that you will go to heaven or hell, it`s just that there isn`t a common ground for all humanity to be judge in the same circunstances.
For example, those who existed before Christ and those who existed after.

honestly, those cases can`t have a linear or straight answer.
In the case where you know who God is - and i mean know that He is the path for salvation - then, as i said before, you either open your heart or you don`t. But even those who believe aren`t free from going to hell, you know? Opening your hearts is a way of loving. Leap of faith isn`t about the amount of proof, is opening your heart. And that means letting Him in.
And your marked words, although a bit subjective do make a big difference.

Thing is A deals with knowing for a fact and not accepting, B leads with the fact that you know aswell, but you, in another context, still didn`t open up your heart. You start from different places but in one way or another you still decided to open your heart, even if you have different reasons to do so.


2. Even if Hitler didn´t personally kill a single person, the fact is that he initiated a movement of hate, oppression and murder. He was wrong, but so were those who followed him.