What Religion Do You Follow?

[sapphi_snake]

@pizzahut451:

That doesnt give you rights to spread hate against them. which you obviously do, dont even think of tryng to deny that.

I'm just presenting my opinion.

Uh, well how about the fact that eastern christians didnt listen to them? And how many people that opposed the church were killed? Yes, the church killed christians who disagrred with them, thousands of them in fact. Not only muslims and witches were killed there, you know. Funny how you avoided Martin Luther and his followers here, who was a christian and the church still hanuted him down. Also, catholic church in the Middle ages doesnt represent Christianity and its message. But I dont even know why I am arguing this, I already posted 2 points (which you didnt respond to) why all this Middle Age debate is pointless and has very little to do with the beginning of our discussion.

I know very well Christians persecuted eachother. The Middle Ages is a prime example. And the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages sure represented the Chrisitan message back then, as it does now. And MAritn Luther wasn't can't exactly be said to have been a figure of the Middle Ages.

Thats still not everyone :)

But most of them, no?

Thats not how it works. You are on power, you persecute the ones who dont obey and listen to you, and the others pretty much follow and obey out of fear. Back than if you are on power, you could have persecuted anyone you wished. Have you not heard of Absolutism?

You just presented a good argument against organised religion in general.

The lutherans pretty much oppesd everything church did, but they still stayed christian They oppsed the church's policy where you have to pay money to the church to clean yout´from your sins, and where you ''bought'' your place in heaven...

The Protestant Refomration is a very important event, which greatly helped Western Europe evolve, I'll give it that.

and please tell me how can a church colaborate with comunisam, a system which persecutes all theists and banns religion from the country?

Simple really. Someone goes to confession, the priest then reports of anyone admitted to any sentiments against the Communist regime. Lots of priests worked as agents of the Securitate, the Communist secret police that hunted the people who opposed the regime. Collaborating with Securitate offered great benefits.

You think your avergie Christian burns and kills people like the church did 600 years ago?

We were talking about averege Christians in the Middle Ages, no?

Oh, so Reconquista wasnt a war than? Im sorry, but weather religious opression and violent convertion happend during the war time or during the rule of a king of another religion is complelty irrelevant. its equally bad. So Christians kill Muslims in war: Genocide, opression, ehtnic cleansing. Muslims kill Christians in war: Its no big deal. people die in war ??? You dont see the huuuuuge bias here? And I find it hard to believe Ottomans didnt try to forcefully convert people to Islam, they did that in all Balkans, especially in center Bosnia, where still many uslims live, even though they were christians before.And we were talking about christian_muslim relations overall, not just spanish warfare.

Well, maybe it was a little biased. But generally I always believe people should look at what goes on in their own backyard, not their neighbours'. Since I used to be a Christian, I feel more connected to the past actions of Christians, rather then those of Muslims, hence why I'm more critical of them. And you yourself are biased when talking about the "terrible" things Muslims did, when Christiands did the same, if not worst. In the end, all this finger pointing is useless. There are no innocents.

BTW, I thought you were Hungarian.

O_o. We were talking about the Romanian Orthodox Church earlier. What could've possibly make you think I was Hungarian? (my profile should've been the ultimate clue)

They didnt do it to spread their religion, stop cherry picking. They did it to own the land, slaves and gold. The convertion of Sout America happend AFTER most of people were killed and inslaved. While I agree the spreading of Catholicism in Sout America wasnt always violence free, it wasnt the cause of mostof deaths of South Aerican people

Religion was used as a driving factor to encourage the Christians to commit those terible acts. If you'd go back in time and ask a Conquistador, he'd deffinately tell you he's doing what he is "in the name of God", and that those nasty Pagans deserve it. Catholic clergy actually considered themselves the soldiers of God, who were suppose to carry out his bidding, which was to Convert the whole world to Christianity. All the conversions that went out there were immoral (actually any coversions carried out by missionaries today are immoral, as the vicitms are poor ignorant people from 3rd world countries, who are lured into the religion by promises and food from missionaries).

Yes, because if you lived in a muslim country like Saudi Arabia, Libia or Iran you sure would have had the same freedom of speech as if you lived in Christian country such as Romania... And I wasnt talking about you only, but for all people in general that complain how Christianity is opressive because the church did some stuff, what... 600 years ago? And at the same time people are not allowed to say the word Muhammed on television, becauseMuslims can get angry. But Christianity is the opressive religion !!!! PS: I am not saying Islam is opressive religion, because i know very little about it and I am only judging individuals not the whole religion.

In Romania there is separation between Chruch and state (don't know if it's in the Constitution, but it's still applied anyway). I could hardly call myself persecuted. Most Western countries are nice places to live, THANKS TO SECULARISM (though things aren't that great, as eveyone has to pay taxes to the Romanian Orthodox Chruch, regardless of their religion). An example of an opressive Christian country is Russia. Things are almost as bad there for non-Christians, as things are for non-Muslims in Islamic countries. In Russia there is no separation between Church and State, the Russian Orthodox Church actually participates in running the country. There are actually laws that prevent people from doing things that can be interpreted as "insulting for Christians". An artist over there was jailed and fined several times because he protested against the lack of religions freedom with his artowrk, and some priests vandalised his exposition, and they didn't get any punishment whatsoever. If it weren't for secularism, Christians would be persecuting everybody in the countries where they are the majority.

why dont YOU read a little more on the topic you posted. Like the trety of Granada in 1491 which gives Muslims religious tolerance and set of human rights, something Muslims didnt bother to provide to Christians when they attacked Iberia, instead they were forced to pay taxes and be treated like second class citizens under islamic law. And later you say ''Christians converted to islam by free will'', when the links I posted obviously stated diffrently. they were forced to convert to Islam by paying high taxes and by treating like shit by Muslims.

I'm gonna be more polite, and assume you just don't pay attention, rather than intentionally ignore the parts of your link that refute your claims and support mine. According to your link the Treaty of Granada was signed in 1491. Also according to your link, in 1492, the King of Spain (an avid Chriustian) issued the Alhambra Decree, which revoked most of the protections that the Treaty of Granada offered to Jews and Muslims. The forced conversions, persecution and deportations that I said happened really did happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree

Please read what you link more carefully.

You just said ''when the time machine is invented I'll show how civilized european Christians are''.  And you'll find that 80% of Islam in Middle ages was ottoman empire, and they were in no way, shape or form more adcanced than Europe.China ? Yes. Islam? No and if you wanna talk about Europe overall (not just christian europeans) you might wanna mention old Greeks, one of the greatest philosophers and anccient Romans, the masters of architecture and art. Both very advanced and amazing civilizations.

Actually the Middle Ages started in the 5th century, and the Ottoman Empire didn't exist 'till the end of the 13th century. 80% of the Middle Ages is actually Arabs, especially the European Moors. The Greels and the Romans were amazing, but we're taling about the MIDDLE AGES, not Antiquity. Europe (exception beint Muslims Spain) was one of the most primitive places in the world, where science and thinking was not encouraged, and the works of the Greek philosophers you acclaim were destroyed, as Christians thought they were dangerous (they also destroyed Roman Universities and discouraged learning). Heck, Christians even discouraged hygene, by destroying Roman bath houses, and scaring people by saying that washing was dangerous (this practice was continued by Chrisitans in Europe even after the Middle Ages were over).

The Byzantines kept the Greek Philosophers writings, but they didn't use them that much (though I'm not sure about that, as I mostly learned about the Western Europeans). The Muslims also cherished the works of the Greek Philosophers when Christians burned them. They developed Philosophical works of theor own, they made progress in the field of mathematics (have you ever heard of arab numerlas?), astrology, medicine (a medieval Christian doctor would probably kill you, while surgical methods developed by arabs were used worldwide 'till the early 20th century) etc. If you'd jsut do a little research you'd find out just how amazing Muslims were back then (don't be fooled by the radicals of today), and how primitive Christians were (we're talking about the Middle Ages, Europe's lowest point).Without them Western Europe would've never had a Reneissance.

well, at least you admited you are wrong in the best way you could :)

I didn't admit I was wrong. I decided to reply anyways, as I was in the right state of mind. You have not managed to support your points, and you cannot, because you're wrong (maybe not regarding the more subjective ones regarding who was right to invade etc.m but definatelt regarding the historical points (the way Christians treated Muslims and Jews, the state of the Christian world and the Muslim world during the Middle Ages etc.). Do some more research regarding the latter, and read carefully.