Official Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty thread!

[r505Matt]

Words Of Wisdom said:

r505Matt said:

The part where you can sometimes more easily force better players to screw up. There's a difference between waiting for mistakes and making someone make mistakes. The core of zerg play is based on this even if most people don't know it yet. If you've been watching the GSL final matches you'd see how the Fruit Dealer does things that forced Rainbow to make mistakes. In the first match, he split up his forces to hit the the expos because he HAD to, and that was a forced mistake. Even then, Rainbow made a mistake by not pressuring an FE zerg earlier. In the 2nd match, he made enough mutas to make Rainbow make some thors, which me made specifically for the mutas, and so Cool flies in with baneling bombing. Or better put, Cool's muta pressure forced Rainbow to play the way Cool wanted him to, so he could prepare his counters ahead of time. Once the hook was set, Cool immediately researched OL speed pickup, dropped a roach warren and a baneling nest. He thought of it all ahead of time.

Your point wasn't "low level players screw up more", your point was "you can't rely on high level players to screw up". I was disagreeing with that, of course low level players screw up more. Low level players tech up too soon, don't build armies, don't make extra workers, build armies that are already countered, fail micro, fail macro, etc. People make these mistakes all the way up to diamond, so don't assume low level player = bronze/silver/gold. I face plats and dias every once in a while that don't know how to micro. At all.

But all players at all levels make mistakes and you really can rely on that. Not only that, you can force them to make mistakes. The only difference is that at higher and higher levels of play, you can't expect their mistakes to just happen on their own. Understanding and employing mind games and proper scouting are key.

Specifically about nydus worms, they're actually quite tricky. I don't believe their main use is to get into the back of someones base. I find them better for crazy retreating tactics and flanking, and just causing people to go "Oh man! Where's the Nydus? Is it near my base?" If you can time a nydus to pop right as your opponent is a little more than halfway to your base, then assault that army, it's crazy how easily you can catch people off guard (especially if you throw a small squad of lings at their main base to add to the trick). Tanks unsieged, rines and rauders unstimed, if you have the right unit composition (speedlings, roaches/hydras, infestors, banelings, maybe some mutas/ultras) it's INSANE how easily you can take down the army. By the time he realizes what's really happening, you've taken out the bioball with the infestors and banelings. Further, let's say you're in a losing fight, you can lead the army away from the center of the battlefield to some remote location where you have a nydus up and pop up again either with the rest of your army or nearer your opponents base. Nydus worms aren't really usable for backdooring into a base except at low level play.

Wall of text... where to start...

I didn't like the GSL finals.  ITR just didn't make an impressive showing on his own merits.  In the first game ITR didn't attack until something like 14 minutes in.  Fruitseller had all day to take bases, put up an army, tech to whatever he wanted, and steamroll ITR.  That was a gimme.  Second match was the Lost Temple one IIRC.  The mutas did force something, but they didn't force the Thor transition.  ITR was already going mech for the drops.  The big thing the mutas did was make his already highly immobile army (thanks to being tank-heavy) even more immobile putting him into a turtle position which made Fruitseller's hidden 2 o'clock expo even more safe.  I really think ITR bet too heavily on that tank drop being successful and wasted too much time, money, and micro on it.  The final match just killed me though.  Proxy reaper... on scrap station?  Here's a map that Zerg loves because reapers have a tough time in the first place (as well as the extra wide ramps).  The match to have Reapered on would have been the Kulas Ravine one, because it would have paid for itself by shutting down Fruitseller's gold expo hard.

As for my point, I know what my point was because I'm the one who made it.  Here's a quote of me:  "At higher level play where you can't count on so many screw-ups."  Notice the "so many" part?  Yeah, that's relative to the statement made before it:  "The result is that lot of matches keep going for quite a while because the possibility that your opponent will screw up is out there."  It's not an absolute statement so don't misread it and think that.

Nydus Worms... pretty much my sentiment as well.  I like expanding with them because maynard'ing drones can take a long time depending on base distance which means mining time lost and they're vulnerable to harassment en route.  The mining time saved can easily pay for the Nydus Worm on its own.  Plus there's also that warm, fuzzy feeling of just having Nydus Worms at your expansions.  The concept of luring an opponent's army to a corner with one of mine and putting them all into a Nydus Worm (only to dump them out somewhere else with reinforcements) is a cool idea I haven't tried though.  Have you had success with that?

Well my bad, the stronger point I got from your statement was not that better players don't make many mistakes, but that you can't rely on better players to make mistakes. It's kind of redundant to say better players don't make as many mistakes anyways isn't it? That's kind of what defines a better player.

But yeah, about the little retreat trick, I've only used it once and to great effect. In a 2v2, I engaged one player's army, and lured him away from his teammate. I ran into the nydus, came out near my teammate's army, and we mopped the other player's army before the first guy's army came back. Then he came back, and we finished him off easily as well. I only used it in a 2v2 match, but I think it could be most effective in a 1v1. If you can 'force' him to split his forces, or make him think he's cornering you, and you pull this off, it can be game-winning. And the best part of it is, unlike other zerg tactics, it's little to no risk; if he doesn't folliow, you just group back up, no heavy losses. It might have helped that my teammate was on board and was kind of distracting the other player, but still, I think it could work in 1v1.

I think of the Nydus worm is just a crazy mind game building/unit. But if you do rush lair, it is possible to Nydus into even a good player's base which can sometimes be gg right there. Depends on where his army is.