CrazyHorse said:
Kasz216 said:
CrazyHorse said:
Kasz216 said:
CrazyHorse said:
It seems to me that Hawking is arguing (or at least proposing) that the creation of the universe is simply an unavoidable event which had to come into being and therefore was not necessarily created by some kind of intervention.
Now I won't pretend to be able to explain exactly how this can happen or even that it did but I don't understand how certain people seem to think that it is impossible for the universe to, for lack of a better expression, 'create itself'. If something had to be a prime mover, why not the laws of physics? The problem I have with the idea of a creator is that it doesn't help to resolve anything at all, it simply pushes back the first mover an extra step as we are then left with the issue of who created the creator? If we have to start somewhere, why not start with something we can observe and measure as opposed to some metaphysical entity of which there is no experience of?
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The problem your making is... universe =/= reality.
It's no different then saying you don't need man to make the bird pop out of a cucu clock. You're ignoring the clock's construction itself.
As for someone needing to create a creator. Not sure that actually holds valid since it would be out of the realm of said laws as a whole.
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I'm sorry but I'm not sure excatly what you mean by your first sentance. Are you trying to suggest that the universe is not all there is to reality and as such a lack of experience of God in the universe does not mean he does not exist? If so i fail to see how we should propose beliefs on such logic. That we do not have any experience of God in this universe does not mean he does not exist but it absolutely in no way suggest he does.
I find the other two statements to be a very hypocritical view point expressed by many people. If the universe, which we can study and to an extent understand can not create itself from the laws which govern it (and I argee it's a difficult thing to argue) then why should some creator, which we have never experienced be afforded that luxury?
I'm afraid I find your answer very unsatisfactory as again it seems to plead a special case for God which for some reason does not apply to the universe itself. If the universe came from nothing and was not created by necessity from its own laws then its creation must by definition have been outside the realm of said laws and so, in your own words, it itself would not require a creator?
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You seem to be ignoring the fact that Hawking itself does suggest it has an extradimensional creator. Just not a thinking one.
If I were you... I'd just wait for the book...
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Well actually I didn't ignore anything of the sort as it was never mentioned. I was simply responding to your points which to me seemed to be applying one set of rules to one variable but not to another. You seem to have misunderstand the point of my posts (as perhaps I did with some of your yours, it isn't exactly easy to talk about this kind of thing on a message board!). I wasn't trying to completely dismiss the idea that it is possible for a creater to exist (concious or otherwise), rather that I believe you were wrong to invoke the necessity of such a creator.
Regardless of what is said in the book I fail to see how that affects any of my arguments.
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I never did invoke the necessity of a creator. Simply that there is little to suggest it isn't necessary at present.
It's silly to talk in absolutes when you don't know absolutely everything.
