selnor said: Agreed, but how many of the GT buyers of old, havent bothered this time around with a PS3. Chances are high. Forza 3 is selling more each week than GT3 did consecutively. ( although GT3 sold most in it's opening, but still not bad thereafter. ) So are some old PS2 owners who own a 360 now not gonna bother with PS3 and GT5? If ou have played Forza 3 it's more than a filler for GT. In many peoples opinion a more community feel and better realistic physics system. But thats opinion.
I think GT5 will be doing well to beat 7-8 million Lifetime. Making it PS3's best selling exclusive by 3 million copies.
How do you know the bold part??? GT3 here in VGC has only Japan sales track.
Sorry, but Forza 3 sales is disappointing for me... I expected better sales even with it unrealistic physical (more like Arcade racing).
Sorry I meant GT4.
And I among Simulation racing reviews ( not mainstream gaming reviews ) say Forza 3 is the best car sim model on Consoles currently. Thanks to the only Console sim to provide physics updates 360 times a second and actual tyre deformation including managing tyre temperatures for more performance from your tyres.
I would rather make sure GT5 has these must have simulation aspects done before they work on weather. Rain is again even more about tyre deformation than the dry. Be interesting if they have actually implemented all this. Or is it the same as GT4.
And as you should know by now, since it seems that you're following GT5 development so close, the full GT5 media blowout will be at Gamescon this August.
Once again Selnor, you're grasping at straws. Practice what you preached back in the days of the Forza 3 threads.
I am not interested in aesthetical changes to technolgy in racing games first. I am interested in the important factors which in real life affect a cars handling.
1. Tyres are the only surface which connects the car to a road. More variables happen from changing tyre conditions than any other part on any car.
2. In a sim racing game, the updating of physics is as important as the force feedback. The less the physics is updated the less of the track affects the ambience of the car. As much as 8ft @ 120 hertz physics.
It's great the tech about changing lighting etc making race conditions change ( obviously visibility ) but I want to know if the walls of tyres deform throwing pressure on the outer wall of the tyre like Forza 3. I want to know if having an excursion over grass, cools your tyres and affects the next few corners for grip levels. I want to know if online people who can heat there tyres up quicker with their driving style have an advantage for better grip earlier on.
These are important simulation aspects, which have to be invloved to be classed as anything approaching a realsitic sim.
After all these are in a GT game, then I will be happy to see night and day, changing weather. Because a wet race is even more important on tyre deformation. Blistering etc.
I thought GT fans were sim fans? All anyone ever talks about and shows me is aesthetical technology and graphics.
Did you even read the part in the Gran Turismo site where they said they have a physics for the entire tire temperature? Do you honestly think it will only be for a more realistic smoke?
Also, driving style affecting how quickly you can heat your tires has been implemented on GT before, GT4 had a rudimentary system, true, but it has been done. Of course it'll be enhanced for GT5.
And for your last phrase, don't patronize GT fans Selnor, it doesn't do any credit to you. If you had read the entire detail sheet over at GT site you would see the physics and mechanical changes they are implementing so far on GT5.
Gran Turismo has always been used by far more than just GT fans as it's one of the most realistic approaches to racing, even GT5P garnered high praises from F1 to WRC pilots because of the fidelity approach not only to the tracks, but to the simulation aspect itself: http://www.gamer.tm/news.php?id=1919
Once again, practice what you preached before Selnor, wait before you make these assumptions, unless you fall into the same hypocrisy that you hated last year.
The F1 and WRC pilots that are refferred to are talking about track layout and learning where the track corners are etc.
Top Gear did a GT vs realife awhile ago using GT4. Where they drove around a track on GT then in realife.
The outcome of comments was : In GT the driving is very different from real world. You can learn the track layout, but braking points ( and braking during a corner ) were all very off. Driving the same car in real life around the same track was very different. Jeremy Clarksons actual comment was, if you drove the real car like you did in GT then you wouldnt make the corners.
Obviously It's GT4. And Obviously GT5 will be improved. And yes I read about tyre temperatures. I hope that it's modeled in realtime. And not excrementally. I will be impressed if they model realtime 360 hertz physics ( as opposed to 120 in GT5P ) with realtime tyre temperatures and realtime tyre deformation. Also I hope that for downforce they also have realtime airflow like FM3. These are a must. It's simulation after all. On the poor braking of GT4 part, If they have a realtime tyre deformation physics this will be half the battle. Lets wait and see. hey.
Jeremy Clarkson really just specifies that race simulators don't put out the same visual and tactile feelings that racing inside a real car proportionates.
He also says that he doesn't doubt that a race driver can do 1:40 minutes with the NSX on Laguna Seca just as he did on GT4, yet the average person has a different approach to the stimuli that racing inside a car actually proportionates. That feeling isn't recreated by any simulator, not only GT.
You can have all the physics and Force Feedback in the world, but you can't have the stimuli. That's not GT4 fault, it's the whole racing simulator panorama. I fear you missed any kind of relevance with that video.
Also, since when did FM3 have realtime airflow? Can you link me some article talking about it? I never saw any reference to that, even on the Inside Sims Racing review (which had some very odd reviewing parameters, as some of the things they said Forza did that no other sims racer has done before weren't quite true, especially when it came to the performance affecting damage).
PD still has to shown more about the full details of their new physics system, and I really do hope that it's up to par at least with what FM3 showed (I never denied it was impressive). Also I hope they improve the A.I a lot, which has always been one of the major drawbacks of GT and plenty other sim racers, including FM3 too.
Jeremy Clarkson makes it very clear. " On the playstation you can brake later and during a corner. Do that in real life and I would end up in that wall there. "
The expert next to him while playing the game : " Yes see your already up to 113 miles an hour that soon after the corner. That is not realisitic. "
Of course they refer to feeling realworld physics as an impression on his performance. But you cannot of missed the above comments. Which I believe are down to non realtime physics systems.
Have you ever braked late in FM3 with all assists off? Or tried to brake in a corner. Off the track is where you will end up. In fact when FM3 released, on these very forums there was a thread dedicated to helping people with FM3. People were complaining it was to hard to take corners because the car went straight on.
Here is where Turn 10 got their data from for Aerodynamic airflow:
None other than The best racing simulator in the world. Mclarens F1 simulator provided alot of data and help.
"Turn-10 Studios is pulling out all the stops to make sure Forza 3 isn't just another racing sim, but the racing sim. And it's doing that by sneaking a peek at data yanked from the simulator Lewis Hamilton uses for practice."
"Their simulator was an influence on the game," director Dan Greenwalt told OXM. "We were swapping notes on how they do the complex fluid dynamics for their aerodynamics as well as how they generally simulate tyres, offroad surfaces and what have you."
I didn't miss those comments, but Jeremy Clarkson's final appreciations pretty much sums it all up. He doesn't deny that what he did on GT isn't possible at all for professional race drivers. But to the common man, it is impossible, and that's the flaw of GT.
I played Forza 3 with everything turned off and a 90% extra CR gain because of it. I know how hard it was trying to break and apply the right amount of force to get the optimal line, especially on tracks like Fujimi Kaido. It wasn't that hard to get accustomed to, but then again, I've been racing, on games and real life, for the past couple of years.
Again, nowhere does it says that they're using realtime airflow physics in Forza 3. Just that they implemented a more realistic approach to the aerodynamics itself. That's what GT is also doing in partnership with RBR. They're even using RBR's wind tunnel.
As I've been saying, GT5 has shown a huge room of improvements over GT4, and that's only for the info released so far. And again, if they wrap up a realistic physics approach with the implementations of weather, dynamic day/night shift, real time hour optimization for endurance racing, dynamic crowds, improved A.I, 16 car on track and dynamic damage, ranging from physics and performance altering damage to full panel deformation damage (for premium cars, dents and scratches for standard cars), then GT5 has also the room to become one of the best full fledged sims so far.
