| highwaystar101 said: Green: I would feel that it is wrong to kill another human. Some don't and that is a sad fact we have to live with. I would say that it is most certainly wrong to kill the hermit, as would 99.9% of atheists because we would instinctively know that it is wrong. We can't stop the occasional nutcase who thinks that it is ok to do that. Mind you, then again a small fraction of people who take Christian morals would also feel as though it is justified to go and kill the hermit, despite their absolute morals. And yes, if aliens came tomorrow, I wouldn't expect them to follow a God and yes they would wipe us out in a second unless they felt compassionate towards us.
Blue: Christian morals are timeless, just open to interpretation? How would you interpret, say, Leviticus 24:14 in a modern society... "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him." How open to interpretation is this? You still have to follow it if it is timeless, in the modern world do you still need to stone a blasphemer? How is this interpreted differently now? There's plenty more examples where that came from too. Also, I would like to take up the point that the bible has to be "interpreted", this is confusing as I often hear that the bible is infallible. But if it is open to interpretation by mankind, then how can it be infallible? It just makes it extremely prone to errors (A chain is only as strong as the weakest link). If it is open to interpretation by man, then how can you believe what you read is the true interpretation? ... And the Bible has never said slavery is ok? What about Exodus 21:2-6? "21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 21:3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. 21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever." How about Timothy 6:1-2 "6:1 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. 6:2 If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer* by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." These past few were sourced from Christian websites. unfortunately there is no Christian website that has compiled extracts endorsing slavery. There's plenty more, here's a very bias link which I haven't quoted (link) (well the Christian sites are hardly likely to shout about this are they.)
Orange: So if God suddenly made it ok to kill by removing the morals, you wouldn't kill? So with your new essentially atheist morals, you wouldn't go out killing? You would feel repulsed? Essentially what have said is that you have atheist morals, and you have masked them with Christian morals. So, do you have atheist morals? And regardless of if they have Christian morals or atheist morals, you will still get the nut cases who kill guys with a hammer. Also, are you asserting that I somehow have lesser morals because mine aren't unified from a divine source?
White: Whilst I am saying killing is wrong, I am also saying that it is a sad but natural and essential part of life. Don't believe that killing is essential? Try and get all of your local wildlife to life on a vegetarian diet. |
Just for the record, that section you mentioned from Exodus wasn't talking about the type of slavery that has been common throughout the world.
Slavery, for the most part, has been the involuntary servitude of one person to another for their lifetime. In the Judaic culture, it was far different. In Exodus, the type of servanthood mentioned was more akin to indentured servanthood - where one enters into a 6-7 year contract with the master to serve them. Unless I am thinking wrong, slavery is usually (if not always) a permanant status for that person...In the Bible, it was a much different situation. I could go more into the expository aspect of it, but I do believe its a far cry from what we understand as traditional slavery.
As for Timothy 6 - do not forget that Paul's audience were under Roman culture - a culture that had many abhorrent slave practices...Watch Sparticus: Blood and Sand for a good reminder of what slavery was like during that time period. Christians owning slaves was a far cry, as Paul requested that both parties - the slave and master - enter into a mutual servanthood towards eachother. Don't forget the entire book of Philemon which was dedicated to slavery.
Here is the book, regarding slavery:
8-9In line with all this I have a favor to ask of you. As Christ's ambassador and now a prisoner for him, I wouldn't hesitate to command this if I thought it necessary, but I'd rather make it a personal request.
10-14While here in jail, I've fathered a child, so to speak. And here he is, hand-carrying this letter—Onesimus! He was useless to you before; now he's useful to both of us. I'm sending him back to you, but it feels like I'm cutting off my right arm in doing so. I wanted in the worst way to keep him here as your stand-in to help out while I'm in jail for the Message. But I didn't want to do anything behind your back, make you do a good deed that you hadn't willingly agreed to.
15-16Maybe it's all for the best that you lost him for a while. You're getting him back now for good—and no mere slave this time, but a true Christian brother! That's what he was to me—he'll be even more than that to you.
17-20So if you still consider me a comrade-in-arms, welcome him back as you would me. If he damaged anything or owes you anything, chalk it up to my account. This is my personal signature—Paul—and I stand behind it. (I don't need to remind you, do I, that you owe your very life to me?) Do me this big favor, friend. You'll be doing it for Christ, but it will also do my heart good.
21-22I know you well enough to know you will. You'll probably go far beyond what I've written. And by the way, get a room ready for me. Because of your prayers, I fully expect to be your guest again.
23-25Epaphras, my cellmate in the cause of Christ, says hello. Also my coworkers Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke. All the best to you from the Master, Jesus Christ!
Normally, in such a situation, the Roman would murder the returning slave. Instead, Paul told Philemon to treat him as an equal in his household. Although one would hope that the Bible would go out more to attack slavery, the fact is that it did far more for the betterment of slaves than any culture of that time...Not to mention that the most prominent American abolitionists were all Christians.
Back from the dead, I'm afraid.
