Anyone else a bit offended at claims Heavy Rain's writing is Oscar Worthy?

[LordTheNightKnight]

Khuutra said:

LordTheNightKnight said:

Helios said:

Succinctly put, my friend. I would agree with just about everything you said. The act of playing a game is indeed a form of performance art where an emergent story (that is guided by the plot) is created based on player actions. "Did the player walk up the ridge? If so, what does that mean? Does it symbolize anything? Is an event-state changed as a result of this exercize of player agency? If so, what is changed? How will the player react to this? etc." Improvisional theater (and, to a degree, any kind of role-playing) similarly creates it's story through performances, often based around a central concept or theme.

I have not played Heavy Rain so I'm not a good judge if it qualifies as a game or not. If it is not a game, what is it then? Interactive fiction/drama? I think if the game has gameplay - that is, the game progresses as a result of the input of a player acting as an agent in a goal-oriented system - then I would consider it a game. The question is thus, does the 'ineractive events' of Heavy Rain count as gameplay?

The thing is that a game's story cannot change like AI to react to a player. It all has to be scripted and recorded beforehand, and the game merely triggers them. So regardless of the player's actions, the story will happen the way it was written and then programmed into the game. So you can judge the quality of a scene by watching it (best with knowing context, like many stories), since that scene will only change in a way that is also scripted and triggered.

If Heavy Rain is anything like Indigo Prophecy then the player affects many events int he story. The agency invested by the consequence of a player's actionsn would necessarily affect the perception and quality of a story, if only because everything happening or not happening is your fault.

You're missing the point. Those events have to be planned out beforehand. Of course all game elements do (save for procedural generation). But it does mean that the quality of a story will not improve just because I chose the events when playing it. You're still going along branches of the story. If one branch is badly written and one is written well, they will still be no matter if I am playing or or watching videos of the scenario.

"I personaly like to accept that there are subjective facts. No matter how many people may think sushi is gross, due to their standards, their axioms, knowing that can't change my standards, my axioms, the nature of my body and mind, and make me hate it. The best I can do is delude myself."

"Gross" is an opinion, not a fact. That the think sushi is gross is a fact. There is a difference.

"You wouldn't judge a movie's writing, by just reading its script. (1) You wouldn't judge a colored film, by watching a grey scaled version of it. The writing accomodates the medium. It's not the same experience watching certain parts of Heavy Rain, as when you grip the controller and follow allong with the game.(2)"

1. What makes you think I'm reading the script? There are videos of the game all over youtube and other sites. That shows not just the writing, but the context of the scenes and how they work.

Bull. I've been playing the Disgaea games, and sometimes my family and roommates watch. We all find the stories silly, but fun. Is their opinion invalidated just because they don't have controllers in their hands? No. The story is not part of the gameplay. The only thing that does is make you more determined to see what happens next, not that what happens next will be any better or worse in quality if you are playing instead of watching.

"You're going to have to clarify. Do you mean we should hold video games up to the same high standards of movies as in

1) Using the standards we judge video game writing, we shouldn't label a mediocre writing (according to the standards established) as good. Whether out of haste, joy, etc.

2) We need to change the very standards themselves, into the standards used for tv, movie, radio, etc. Which brings up the question of which medium."

That is a legitimate question, so it might be best to go by the situation. If a game is about telling a story, then storytelling standards should be applied. So wanting something to have a truly great story means we insist a game has a truly great story, if nothing else than undeserved praise just encourages developers to throw lackluster stories. That's not a problem if the audiences don't mind about weak stories, but if the audience wants art, we have to encourage great stories.