Roger Ebert says video games can never be art

[Grahamhsu]

famousringo said:

Grahamhsu said:

famousringo said:

Grahamhsu said:

Gnac said:
Any medium that expects your constant attention before showing you more of itself is not art; it's a woman.

this!

There is art involved with games; graphics, story, etc. But at the sum of it all a game is still just a game.

I disagree. If you change the gameplay mechanics, you change the experience.

Take Silent Hill: Shattered Memories as an example. The game designers wanted to create a sense of fear and helplessness in the player, so instead of empowering the player with weapons and making it a fight for survival, they provide the player with escape routes and make enemy encounters a flight for survival.

You change the rules, and you change the emotional content of the game. The rules of interaction are what differentiate games from other media, and they are a tool of expression and subject to different interpretations just like music or imagery.

You are speaking of Level design (I consider it art), not gameplay. In music we take away all the unimportant notes in a chord to understand it's function and meaning. Same idea applies in this, strip silent hill of music, level design, graphics, and story. By doing so we enter the core of the game, which is essentially killing monsters with a knife/pistol/whatever weapon exists in such game. So are you telling me killing monsters can be considered "art"?

There are no knives or pistols in Silent Hill: Shattered Memories. Their exclusion is a choice made by the game designers, not by the level desginers. The core of the game alternates between exploration of the environment (as a metaphor for exploring ones own internal self) and fleeing the monsters (I'll leave the symbolic interpretation of this up to you ).

If Silent Hill: SM had included killing monsters, that wouldn't invalidate it as art, either. That would simply feed the fantasy that the player is a powerful force of righteousness rather than a confused and terrified lost soul. Just because a theme is hackneyed, cliche, or derivative doesn't mean it isn't art anymore.

We are talking about different games, and not even arguing on similar points, Shattered Memories is the only Silent Hill game I haven't watched my friend play and beat, either way my point is still strip that game to it's basics. As I haven't played the game I have no idea what the gameplay is. Silent Hill SM may be considered art, I consider Heavy Rain art, but i don't count it as a game because I feel like the "game" is more story than game, which would make it a interactive movie in my opinion.

Since it seems you don't see the point I was trying to make in my previous post I'll do an example. A game doesn't need to have music, story, etc TO BE A GAME. A game only requires GAMEPLAY. Let's compare by using 2 extremely basic games.  Pong and Mario Brothers NES, I'll list elements that are included in both games.

Pong:

gameplay: at it's core it is virtual tennis

graphics: 2 lines and 1 dot count as graphics and can even be considered visual art. If I were to print a shirt that said pong and had a print on the front that looked like |    .         | I'm sure someone in the world will buy it.

Mario:

gameplay: from the most basic viewpoint it is jumping on goombas, spitting fire at them, and sliding down flag poles.

Music: lots of interesting music in this one I like the water one the most =P

graphics: lots of sprites

level design: some pretty creative levels, with secret passages etc.

story: The princess is always in the "other" castle and a big green dragon  constantly tries to cockblock you.

Thesis: A game can have artistic elements, some games don't need graphics (there's an XBL indie title that is only sound based), some games don't need sound, some games don't need story, but every game needs gameplay, and gameplay can never be considered art. Therefore games cannot = art. Prove that wrong to me. Also art must have some AESTHETIC value, pleasing to the eye, pleasing to the ear, etc. Show me how gameplay is "aesthetic" and I'll bow down and say games = art.