Are people generally good?

[Zucas]

Kasz216 said:

Zucas said:

mirgro said:
I voted other.

There are good people and there are bad people. There is no way around it. Yes, in a utopian society, maybe, just maybe, everyone will be good. But in a utopian society communism would also work and capitalism would be a horrible thing.

The point I am trying to make is that there are "bad" people. Whether they are affected by something or not does not change reality. You wouldn't have people murdering each other by the thousands and millions, including children, if there wasn't bad. You wouldn't have cheating husbands and wives. You wouldn't have rapists. However this is the real world and treating "bad" people as potentially "good" people is only fooling oneself about reality.

Well in a utopian society, captialism would be unnecessary.  The reason for a lot of things in capitalism, is to account for human nature, or so they think.  In a utopian society, or even the one the communists thought of, there is no such thing as human nature as most of those societies don't think human nature exists.  Everyone is a product of their environment.  If all they know is good, then they will only do good things.  Is actually what Walden II by B.F. Skinner discusses, although it wasn't necessarily to make them good but make a perfect society.  Of course, many don't like the idea of taking "free will" out, but if humans can be so easily manipulated it makes you wonder if free will existed to begin with. 

 

but that's the thing, we don't know if there are "good" people or "bad" people.  Hell we don't even know what "good" and "bad" is.  Especially for those who believe in moral objectivity, especially one that comes from a higher power.  For all those people know, that god could think rape is good.  I know this is a huge nature versus nurture argument, but I just have problems expecting that a little creature like a human born, has anything other than his biological processes.  Everything he knows about the world, has to come from the world.  It's just hard to think, at least for me, that human is encoded with something that makes him more prone to things the society likes or doens't like. 

 

But interesting topic, but rather deep eh.

That's not exactly true... though you are right in that communist utopias the main idea was to "brainwash" people to make sure everyone was treated equally.  The problem being of course, it wouldn't hold if any capialist societies existed... because well... braindrain.

Not all Utopias are in fact Communist Utopias however.  For example Capitalist utopias are utopias where everybody is a good enough person that they will provide for the poor.

You have no government intervention in almost anything, like the later stages of a communist utopia.  However the BIG difference is.... people are still paid based on what they do... meaning to get around the problem of low motivation.  Since in fact there is "extra" wealth then is needed for everybody to live good lives... that "extra" wealth is given around to everybody... and everybody who is below the standard gets taken care of by people who are more generous above the line.  This also fixes the problems of "various levels".

Because if you and I are both given the same amount of money, or same amount of stuff... that by no means will mean we will both be equally as happy.  Which is generally the biggest yet never brought up flaw of communism.  Communism gives you relative physical outcome similarties, but actually may make relative mental outcomes LESS equal.

Well let's not be biased how we characterize it.  A communist utopia wouldn't require brainwashing, because the government (or lack there of) is based around one class that agrees on everything.  Don't argue what it is assumed to be, or what it has been practiced to be, argue what the actual definition is.  Working class takes over, and eventually dissolves the government when everyone only knows how to be a part of the working class.  If all you ever know is how to be in that class, then that is the only way you'll act.  By your stating of it, you could argue the way we currently live now is brainwashing because it is all we have ever known. 

I don't think you could have a capitalis utopia.  Because if it is perfect, what would be the point of money.  The basis of capitalism, is the gain profit.  In a utopian society, that wouldn't be necessary, because everything you gain would be for the society itself, not the individual.  Meaning you would create a business for the sake of the society itself, not yourself.  Of course you could have on that created it for the sake of making money, and then donates a lot to charity, but its doubtful you could call that society a utopia.  Utopias dont' have people that need the charity of others.  The point of a utopia is to eliminate the aspect of human suffering, not pacify it while it exists.  Capitalism can create an ideal society, but not a utopia. 

 

But once again you bring up a flaw that you wouldn't no exists in communism unless it is observed.  Happiness is an emotion, and if we are a product of our environment like communists think, you'll be happy based on what you have learned that makes you happy.  Per se, if playing video games is the subject of happiness to all communists, and everyone has a the same money and stuff (video games) then they will all be equally happy because that is the standard of happiness.  Unless we can show that there is a human nature, then this isn't a flaw of communism, unless we can see it observed as one.