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bobobologna on 24 February 2010
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rocketpig said:
bobobologna said:
@rocketpig: It's funny that you mention MGS4 turning into a run-and-gun game, because it looks like Splinter Cell is also becoming more aggressive in it's game design. Hell, one of the pre-order bonuses is an automatic shotgun. If that doesn't scream run-and-gun, I don't know what does. I think this is a great thing though. What makes these kinds of games (MGS, SC:C, and others like R6, GR, SOCOM) great is that you have the option to run-and-gun or to play stealthily, rather than having the developers force you to play a certain way.

I disagree. If the game is billed as a stealth experience, I shouldn't be able to get myself out of jams by gunning everyone down. It defeats the purpose of the genre entirely. There were times in MGS4 where I was sneaking, got caught, and said "to hell with it". I just started running and took down all the enemies instead of fleeing and fighting from a position of strength. What is the point of sneaking if the element of danger from being caught is removed?

It's like playing Super Mario Bros. with unlimited lives. If there's no danger of dying too many times and having to restart from World 1-1, what kind of challenge is there left to the game? What does it really offer at that point?

There are plenty of games that allow the player to play as they like, which I appreciate a lot of the time. On the other hand, that doesn't mean it works for every genre. Allowing me to run-n-gun removed the challenge from MGS4, even on Solid Normal. And before anyone says "WELL YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT ON TEH HARDEST DIFFICULTY!!!11", I'm not going to do that on a game that didn't offer me a great experience the first time around. I save playthroughs for games that really hit me with a "wow" factor in the first run, which MGS4 did not.

And R6 and GRAW don't really give you an option on how to play the game... they give you different STRATEGIES, but there's only one style of play to get through some areas because you'll get your ass kicked in 5 seconds if you try to blitz the enemy. There's a big difference between giving the player a squad to use strategically, allowing for gameplay choices, versus letting the player run through the world like Rambo in what is supposed to be a stealth game.

First off, what are you disagreeing with?  You hardly respond to my comment in the first paragraph.  But in response, MGS bills itself as tactical espionage action.  Not as a stealth game, although it does have elements.  Notice, if you will, the word action in it's billing.

I guess Bioshock was a failure as a game because it had vitachambers.  I guess Prince of Persia is a horrible game because Elika saves you at every fall (note that I have not played Prince of Persia).

You talk as if the harder difficulties were locked in MGS4.  I think only Big Boss Extreme was locked.  You don't have to play through the game multiple times to get a good experience the first time.  If I played Mass Effect on easy or normal (I'm on my first run on "hardcore" I think, whichever is the hardest difficultly that's unlocked at the beginning of the game, so I don't know how easy easy/normal is), then complained that the game was too easy and I didn't need to use any of my biotic powers, how stupid would I look?

I can see your point about the R6 and GR series.  With the original Rainbow 6 games (R6, Covert Ops, Rogue Spear, Ravenshield, Athena Sword), I would agree with you.  Those games absolutely punished you for not using stealth, except in Terrorist Hunt mode.  The slightest provocation would result in bombs going off or hostages being killed.  There were even missions where you had to bug rooms and could not be spotted.  But the newer games forgo punishing stealth in favor of giving you options (not to mention that the games have turned very linear and action focused).  You can use a silencer in R6: Vegas 1/2 and try to pick off as many targets as possible without being noticed, or you can just go in loud and shoot everything you see with a machinegun.  The option is yours.

You also completely ignore and do not respond to my comment that it looks like Splinter Cell: Conviction is going to offer more aggressive approaches to situations.  Come on, seriously, an automatic shotgun.  Is it going to be a silenced automatic shotgun that shoots tranquilizer pellets?  Have you seen all the videos?  I'm willing to bet that I could beat Splinter Cell: Conviction on normal with guns blazing, easily.  Except the situations where stealth will be forced (if there are any).

In the end, I think it's stupid to compare MGS and the Splinter Cell series directly.  The games have very different design goals in almost every aspect possible.