In my opinion, Demon's Souls is a bad game.

[lestatdark]

bugrimmar said:

lestatdark said:

bugrimmar said:

^ no, diablo is completely different. with diablo, you don't HAVE to necessarily repeat whole sections of the game, exactly like you just did awhile ago.

one great feature that diablo included was that maps are always randomized every time you boot up the game. also, monsters only regenerate when you log out of the game (or after a certain period of time), which means you don't have to fight through the same guys just to get your body back.

see, in demon's souls, everything regenerates and the area is always the same. so you really gotta kill everything you just killed 10 minutes ago in the same area, again and again.

so actually, if demon's souls didn't regenerate everything after you die, it wouldn't suck. the fact is, it's a forced repetition with absolutely no variety.

Actually demon's souls works a lot more alike with Diablo (and Diablo 2) than you think.

Regenerating maps in Diablo don't change the fact that both enemies and the overall layout of the levels are already predetermined, just like in demon's souls. Also, in higher difficulties, dying in Diablo 2 spells even more doom than dying in Demon's Souls.

Take for example, chapter 5, Hell Difficulty. You die while fighting Minions of Hell that Baal summons. Trying to get your body back from it's borderline impossible. If you log out, you lose your body as well.

Demon's Souls corrects that fundamental flaw. Even if you die and log out, your bloodstain remains in the same place, and will continue to remain there until you get it or die again. That means that you can die in a hard place offline, go back into the game online, get some blue phantom help and go back to the place you left your bloodstain. It's all a matter of adapting your needs to the overall situation of the game.

Also, Demon's Souls challenge is pretty equal to the higher difficulty levels of Diablo 2, meaning that you will be doing the same parts over and over again in Diablo 2, just to get better loot or to gain some levels before tackling a pretty difficult boss. Doing solo Hell runs, will have you replying the Black Marsh Countess tower over and over again for hours, just to get some decent runes for your character. The same happens with Demon's Souls, you'll be replaying the same parts over and over again, either for souls to gain more levels or to upgrade your weapons, or to gain stones. 

Actually, Demon's Souls regenerating everything after you die it's one of the best additions they could have ever add. I hated to kill everything in a Diablo 2 map, Save & Exit just to have everything reloaded.

Plus, as a finishing line, you're not forced to do any kind of repetition in Demon's Souls. You can lineary go through levels, only defeating the bosses and not caring for stats or anything else. A straight run in Demon's Souls without doing anything on the side, will take you 20 hours tops.  Also, most of the deaths you saw on the pantheon from top players, are forced deaths in order to enable some of the World Tendency events, not actual deaths from screw-ups.

Actually, regenerating maps does make you at least experience something relatively new. At least you're not really going through the exact same place and you're constantly exploring a new area.

When you log out of Diablo 2, your body is brought back to the town area. I don't understand what you mean when you lose your body. All you lose is experience and gold, which is easy to get back anyway. The point is that you can easily get your body back no matter the situation in Diablo. In Demon's Souls, you MUST go kill the same monsters again. Your body will never return to town if it's caught in a deep part of a castle or something.

See, the difference with Diablo and Demon's Souls is choice. In Diablo, you can choose not to grind if you don't want to. You can choose not to go through Hell difficulty if you don't want to. Diablo lets you finish the game, and at least see the whole story, without having to go through impossible monsters that require a stronger character. Diablo gives a chance to players who don't really want to grind like hell. If you want to grind like hell, there's an option to do so. But the point is, Diablo gives you options. Demon's Souls has no options. Either you grind, or you grind.

You're not forced to do any repetition in Demon's Souls? That's new to me. Every single time you die you're forced to repeat everything. Not caring for stats? You can't defeat strong monsters without good stats. Straight runs? Yeah, you can do a short, straight run, after grinding like hell for most of the game.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. Diablo has so many choices for many different players. Demon's Souls only caters to the grinder.

My point is that you're nitpicking Demon's Souls to the maximum that you can in order to get your point across, when there are lots of games that have done the same thing that Demon's Souls is trying to do now.

Having logged more than 1000 hours in diablo 2 and more than 100 in Demon's Souls, I can safely say that the two of them have more in common than you're wanting to see.

Regenerating maps don't get you to explore a new area, they just change the geometry of the area, that's all. It will have a new nook or cranny, but the caves, the enemies, the exits, they are all the same, no matter how much geometry changes. Any pro Diablo 2 player can easily tell you that regenerating maps isn't even a consideration, since when you're stuck doing grinding sections for loot or exp, you don't pay any attention to the maps, not when you're in your 10th time around the map.

Isn't losing Exp and Gold the same exact thing as losing your Souls if you miss your Bloodstain? This is exactly the same thing. Only Demon's Souls gives you a chance to get it, even if you lose it in a very difficult part (if you ever get to 5-2/5-3 and lose your bloodstain on the swamp there, you'll see what I mean). Diablo 2 doesn't, either you go there and risk dying again, losing more exp in the process, or you log out, sacrificing exp and gold for your equipment.

Diablo 2 and Demon's Souls doesn't require you to grind if you want to finish the game. You can ask a lot of people who have already finished Demon's Souls here and they'll all say to you that the grinding aspect of the game is only required if you're aiming for platinum or NG+. Dying and going back to do the level is hardly grinding, unless you consider dying in every other game and going back to do the levels again, grinding. Also, as people have already told you too, almost all stages have a shortcut to finish them relatively fast. If you only care to finish the game and not grind anything, you can finish the game in 10-20 hours easily. Just like Diablo, you have the choice in how you want to play your game.

 I can see we're going to go back and forth in this dialogue, since you have already given indications that you do not want to see the similarities, which are more than blatant enough. Once more, I respect your opinion about demon's souls as it clearly isn't a game for everyone. But at least be a bit fair and try to see that Demon's Souls is not alone in it's mechanics, that can probably give you a better insight on Demon's Souls.