Yeesh, some people really do live in the dark ages. This is abuse.

[dtewi]

mrstickball said:
dtwei -

What about Christians that have seen the evidences of God in their life and of those around them? There is a 3rd reason, ya' know.

There are a lot of people, the majority I'd argue, of new converts that turn to Christianity because they've turned everywhere else to find a way to heal and help themselves from their problems. In many cases, it does a great service for those people. You can argue placebo, or whatever rational equation, but people do feel it gets fantastic results.

I know in my personal situation, with the Christians that are around me, it's helped them and myself. It's led me to be a more self-sacrificial person, a more caring person, a more aware person of those and their needs. In that, I've found self-fulfillment, and a way to better myself and my situation, and the situations of people around me.

So no, I don't believe fear or indoctrination are the only ways people become Christians. In fact, I don't think I've met many Christians that fit that idea. Yes, some come to Christ because they are indoctrinated by family. When I was a youth pastor, I told all the youth in my class flat out that they needed to leave, or reconsider what they're doing if they were forced into church by family. In fact, I've seen that happen growing up as a homeschooler - it has absolutely horrible results. And by horrible results, I mean the conversion isn't true, and the person falls away shortly after they leave the house.

Yes, people do come to God through very unscrupulous means such as fear and indoctrination. But in neither case to the conversions ring true. Religion based on fear yields useless people that live by the letter of the law, and not the love of the law in such a way to help others, and develop a true passion for God, and taking care of those around them. Indoctrination yields very flaky people that fall away very quickly. But still then, the core drive of Christianity are those that have that actual connection with God. You can call it psycosis, placebo, or whatever else you'd like to, but there are millions of people out there that have no symptoms of any illness, and are very smart people that will tell you that they've heard God, talked to God, had God tell them insightful things to help better their life. I'm one of them. I don't think it's totally irrational to say that God has talked to me, and improved my life.

I'm not going to start insulting your beliefs so I'm going to ignore much of the content that responding to would make me sound like a complete ass.

There is no evidence of God. Maybe those are peoples' consciences telling them what to do. Their conscience may have been weighing heavy on them telling them the right thing to do, and then they falsely convince themselves that it was God. The conscience isn't God.

And don't lie saying that fear or indoctrination weren't why the majority signed up for the church. You are putting up your own personal experiences which mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. And let's not forget that's it your perception of what was happening and you couldn't see into the minds of the children and figure out their reasoning. I've yet to see you put up a decent reason for belief. A third reason may be present, conformity, and a fourth, false proofs, but these may be stretchting it a little.