What's wrong with JRPGs today?

[Beoulve]

deadt0m said:

Beoulve said:

deadt0m said:
A lot of things are wrong with JRPGs today.

#1 - They are hardly ever turn based. And yes, I know that this is a matter of opinion. I just vastly prefer turn based jrpgs to "action" RPGs. Western developers, especially Bioware, are so far ahead of the curve in terms of action RPGs that the Japanese attempts fall flat for me.

#2 - Graphics, although I guess that isn't really a new issue. When consoles moved to CDs, graphics became a huge selling point, not just for RPGs but for consoles as a whole. It had a particular effect on the RPG market, though. RPG developers started spending a large amount of their dev time and budgets on sweeping, visually impressive cinematics in order to capture the graphics-hungry new consumers. Unfortunately, it came at the expense of gameplay and especially story writing. When characters were sprites, they had to be extremely compelling for a gamer to really relate to the story. Now, though, you can just have a party of spiky-haired androgynous white people, give them big swords, and sprinkle the game with cutscenes of them swinging said swords, and it's a lot easier way to get a game out. They are trying to sell games on visual appeal instead of actual meaningful content. As technology has improved, this has become more and more pronounced.

#3 - Enix :P

#1 - I somewhat agree with you. It seems to be a minus these days if a game has turn-based battles. But I also think that experimenting is important to move the genre forward. I like what Bioware and Bethesda did with Mass Effect and Fallout, mixing RPGs with shooters. FFVII:Dirge of Cerberus was an attempt at doing this, but because the gameplay was clunky it failed, but I urge Square Enix to keep improving on what they started. I also like it when developers mix other genres into their RPGs, like the sidescrolling platform elements in Valkyrie Profile, the sidescrolling action in Odin Sphere, the strategy in Final Fantasy Tactics and Valkyria Chronicles, and the puzzle gameplay in Puzzle Quest.

 

#2 - You know, games had crap storylines in 2D RPGs on the SNES as well... And it's actually easier to relate to simple sprites and character graphics than something highly detailed. It's like reading a book compared to watching a movie. You might not agree, but it's a common fact in the animation and comic industry. If characters have detailed, but for some reason, annoying design these days, it becomes so overly evident, while in games with simple graphics it's not so big an issue. Also, you could read much more between the lines in older games, because of the technical limitations you had to flesh out certain aspects with you own mind.

Games like Lost Odyssey and Persona 4 shows that you can make games focusing on graphics and/or design, and still tell a good story.

I think it's amusing you're implying that Final Fantasy VII had less focus on story and gameplay than previous games. What Final Fantasy VII did however, was that it made JPRGs appealing to a mass western audience and it opened the door for more RPG developers to publish their games in the west. And with more games, came more crap. 

 

#3 - Enix aren't really masters of storytelling, I'll give you that. But personally I loved Dragon Quest VIII, just because it was such a nostalgic experience, but in a beautiful package. That game is also a great example of that something simple can be better than something overly complicated. It's easily the most charming RPG last generation. The Star Ocean games had good gameplay in my opinion, but the storylines (as is the case in most tri-ace games) were pretty bad. The main story isn't necessarily awful, but the horrible script and voice acting ruins what might have been slightly good. I had troubles finishing Star Ocean 2 because of the horrible translation and dialogue, even though I enjoyed the gameplay and challenging battles. And the big twist in Star Ocean 3 is the most retarded thing I've ever encountered in an RPG to date. The game was actually pretty enjoyable up until that point where it became almost unbearable.

#1 - I think WRPGs and SRPGs are a completely different discussion.  Like I said in my original post, I think western devs are doing some really good stuff with "action RPGs", and there have been a few really awesome strategy RPGs, although a majority are on handheld systems.  And yeah, I also enjoy games from other genres that add RPG elements.

#2 - Yes, I know there were plenty of awful JRPGs before the CD era, but to me it seems like there was a far larger proportion of quality titles, as well.  I know, once again, that this is a matter of opinion, but let's look at Final Fantasy as an example.  I would consider FF2,4,6 all very good games from the cartridge era, meaning that 50% of the titles were quality.  By contrast, I would consider FF9 the only really good game from the CD era.  When you add in things like Mother, Phantasy Star, Ultima, Dragon Quest, etc., I just feel like games were far more compelling before the switch to CD.

Personally, I'm not sure what is so amusing about my opinion re: FF7.  FF6 was the epitome of why that series was so good.  The story was amazing, the villain was one of the best fleshed out ever, and the way the whole story started coming together late in the game was epic.  FF7 felt completely mechanical to me.  Sephiroth is one of the most ridiculously stupid characters of all time, and to be honest, I didn't even begin to relate to any of the characters.  They just seemed like pretty models to stick in cutscenes to me.  As for FF7 opening up the doors, I'm not really sure that's true at all.  It certainly doesn't seem like substantially more RPGs are released in the West these days compared to the SNES/Genesis generation.  If anything, it feels like the opposite is true.

#3 -  I was just giving Enix a hard time :P

 

Yeah, it's matter of opinion, and we are entitled to them, lol :)

I personally love FFIV, V (not the greatest story, but fun), VI, VII, IX and X in the series. A lot of SNES generation RPG players loves to hate FFVII and that's fine by me. I personally love FFVII because of the characters and the story. I could probably find a lot of flaws if I started analyzing it with an objective mind these days, but I don't want to ruin the experience of that game, because it was such a special and defining moment for me as a gamer. So lets just agree to disagree :P

I don't have the nostalgia towards SNES RPGs though, because most of them were never released in Europe, actually only a handful were. And I hate it when elitist wannabes try to imply that I'm an inferior gamer, because I didn't play this and that on SNES or Meda Drive (Genesis). I'm not saying you are like that, I'm just mentioning it. I have played a lot of RPGs during my time as a gamer, and I'm as entitled to an opinion as those who grew up with SNES RPGs.

I've played several SNES RPGs on emulator and/or re-releases though, and I think some of them are a little overhyped. A lot of the opinions regarding several of those games are affected by nostalgia, which is perfectly fine, but I'm just saying. I'm not denying that the SNES had a lot of great RPGs, not by any stretch. SNES saw a lot of great games, but technology moves forward, and if some gamers choose to obsess over the past, that's fine, but they're not really pushing the industry forward. Again, I'm not necessarily talking about you, because I don't know you, lol. However, I think some of your animosity towards CD-era RPGs might be related to age? At least I see that in myself. What I mean is that I become more critical with age (naturally), so it takes more to be immersed by the story than it did at an earlier age. And most of my favorite RPGs are from PSX era, because that is when I got into the genre and I was younger and the themes and characters appealed more to me at that age. I don't now, this is just speculation. But regardless, I guess I have the same feelings towards the PSX that you have for the SNES.

I can't speak for USA, but for Europe, the FFVII impact is undeniable. I think you can count JRPGs released in Europe on two hands (at best) prior to FFVII. After FFVII was released and the success of the franchise continued in Europe, the JRPGS were released in great numbers and made the genre more mainstream than ever.

Today, the genre seems to have taken a step backwards though, and JRPGs are becoming a niche genre again (much more so than the cd-era and last-gen anyways), especially in the west (and probably more specifically, Europe). A lot of the established franchises haven't seen any releases on the current gen consoles, and I think this explains a lot. 

 

Feel free to ignore my rambling, lol