ManusJustus said:
All I can say from your last post is, what? I'll try to garner more productive debate in another manner. Lets assume God exists and that God created the universe and is all powerful. Man is more powerful than an ant, yet nothing compared to the difference between God and man. A man puts ants in an ant farm, feeds them, watches over them, but he requests that the ants pay homage to him in return for his good deeds. If the man feels the ants disobey him or do not pay proper respect to them, he takes the ants out and tortures them horribly. We would all say that the man is being ridiculous, yet when we look at God we think his actions are not so ridiculous. Why would a God want people to worship him? Why would he reward or punish should inferior creatures in such a way that is described in the Bible? Why is God angry, or jealous? The answer is that God was created by man, and naturally man gave God human-like characteristics. This explains why God has the personality of a human king in 5,000 BC. At that time men desired to be worshipped, they were very angry, jealous, and vengeful against others, and if possible they ruled with a iron-fist. Actions God commanded of his Old Testament followers were harse and ridiculous by today's standards, but were on par with mankind at that time. |
You do make a good point with the bolded comment when considered from the perspective that you view it, but I don't think you fully understand the standpoint that Christians look at God. You seem to be taking what sticks out to you, as a result of your views on the topic, and using it as you would like. This is not entirely bad. It is something that a lot of people do, even those who believe. It is a quality that we have as people, to speak from what we understand and what speaks to us. I do appreciate you having a much more productive tone in that post.
Let me speak from my own personal standpoint as a Christian for a moment. I don't believe that God made us to be subserviant to Him. Yes, in the end He hopes us to believe in Him, but not by force. Also, just as you (or anyone) may think you (or they) love someone and not really love them, the same can be true of someone who says they love God. You could simply be obsessed with the other person or you might be using them to fill a need. Perhaps you just accept the person's existence. You could also just be saying it to get your way, or you could be saying it to appease someone else. You could be saying it because you are under the influence of another force all together such as drugs or a deluded sense of love. These are all possible in the diversity that is a fully capable human being. As a typical Christian, one believes that God created the world. While as a Christian, I believe that God created this world with everything in it and included sin in this process, to provide the best environment for us to reach our greatest potential as diverse, wonderfully expressive human beings. I believe that it is in our individuality and personalities, that give meaning to the words "I love you." Just as many people would rather hear an "I love you" from a unique person than from a drone conditioned to say it. Sin is as it is because it takes away from the person's heart and who the person is as a whole. It demeans the quality of the person and the meaning of their "I love you." Developing ourselves to such a heightened and meaningful degree as people may not be possible without the presence of sin. Making moral choices are important for growth and individuality.
The old testament was written as it is because Society was young. While they weren't incapable, just as any intelligent person without enough experiences, they may not be able to make all the connections necessary to make good decisions or to read between the lines. That is why a set of guidelines were issued. Similar to when you tell your child to or not to do something, because they haven't lived enough or developed enough to know for themselves. That is why the new testament is much more open to human decisions. It isn't the act that matters so much as the reason for the act, but it wasn't until Society had grown enough that they could have hoped to make those decisions well. I believe that Jesus giving His teachings and more specifically His dying on the cross was in many ways the symbol of the age of accountability for mankind.
I don't think I fully addressed your comment about punishment. I think, again personally from my Christian perspective, that children of God are the ones more subject to punishment. Those who believe but then ignore Him on a given issue. Most of the time it isn't so much that they are punished though. It is that they didn't do what He already knew to be the "right" thing to do, whether it be something that God intervened with or not, we all can say that there are choices and then there are "better" choices. Well God will likely lead one to the "better" choice. So by not choosing the better choice, of course they are left with outcomes that are not as ideal. Thus they are somewhat punished by their decision, but is that really Him punishing them or them punishing themselves, another tactic of establishing identity? Also, if a person were to live their life without that guidance and sought out an existence without God, then if they were sent to a location that did not have God in it, assuming that God, Heaven, and Hell exist in their absolute, then naturally the person would go where he had sought, a location without God, being Hell. So again, not so much a punishment as it is simply a chosen direction. The nature of that location is what it is, just as we know what to expect if we go to Walmart, though I don't think that we would consider what inconveniences are amongst what we came for to be "punishment." Obviously by that time, the person had come to terms and accepted the decision, so they are getting what they wanted so to speak. God has, however, been known to more directly intervene if He sees an absolute need to, something that at times might be more seen as a punishment. A typical Christian believes that God knows all. He knows what will and will not take place ahead of time, so if a direct intervention is necessary, then regardless if we understand the reasoning behind it, chances are it was still justified, but not in contrast with His "loving" nature, simply acting on knowledge that we do not have and may be essential that we not have in order for the process to happen as it should. Much of this has to do with an understanding of God and a trust for Him though. If you don't understand Him or trust Him, then this won't fully make rational sense or seem to matter.
