Socialism and communism

[mrstickball]

Kasz216 said:

mrstickball said:

Kasz216 said:

mrstickball said:
Final, no, it was more at saving the industry.

America will always need cars. If the big 3 collapsed, people would still buy cars. Just not from the big 3. There *are* other car manufacturers out there, and with their increased demand, they would hire some of the unemployed.

And given how atrocious the UAW is at managing employee benefits, the big 3 had done far too much to deserve an auto bailout. Why aren't Nissan, Toyota, or Honda looking for handouts, too?

They are actually.

Or at least it's expected. 

I don't know how you can blame the UAW... the Big 3 are the ones who granted them those benifits.  The UAW weren't the ones who were supposed to handle the money that pays for the retirees and employees benfits.  The Automakers were supposed to handle all that.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090304-Toyota-Honda-Mazda-May-Ask-for-Government-Bailout/

Toyota wants $2 billion in loans from Japan vs. GM wanting $2 billion per month. Pretty large difference, no?

And yes, the automakers were supposed to handle all of that. They failed. So did the unions for asking for too much, and striking when they couldn't get their way. Auto employees are some of the laziest, most useless workers in America, and the UAW got them into a very cushy position using their brokering power(s). Because of that, the auto companies should file for Chapter 11, re-organize with new employees, and go forward, rather than the Big 3 keeping employees that are just too overpaid vs. the foreign rivals.

That's not to say that UAW workers are the only issue. It's the Big 3's fault for making inefficient, unreliable, bad cars year after year, while foreign rivals kept doing better. Their plants are also a mess in functionality. Why is it that GM, Ford and the rest can make money overseas, and lose so much here in the US?

That was true in the 80's.

If you've ever been to a modern car plant though... you'd see there are very few lazy workers there anymore.

The problems aren't with the workers... it's with the Management.  They run bad parts that they know can't be used for anything, and do all sorts of other usless moves to keep production up even when it's on scrap because you get judged on how many parts you stamp... not how many parts are actually usefull.

The Machines in car plants are constantlly running there is little chance to be lazy since the machines are all automated now.  The lazy workers ended when they got rid of the button presses and made them all modernized.

An example to how it works now would be... say you Askuma and I are working on a press...

and one of us notices a part has a divit or a bend or something we know won't run.

You'll hit the light to bring your sectional guy.  Tell him the problem.... he'll call the supervisor.  The supervisor wil come over... look at the parts.  Tell you to keep running them anyway, have the lift driver take it over to "repairs" where it will just sit until it's sent to scrap.

Then once your projected number of parts is stamped, they'll switch dyes and have the dymakers fix the dye.

Rather then what would make sense.... switching the dye immediatly and/or fixing said dye in the machine while the team gets shifted over to an empty machine.

The factories do a lot of useless work because the supervisors feel the need to stand out since they can be fired rather eaisly otherwise.

My dad was a truck driver, and I had the great opportunity to tour the country, and see dozens, if not more auto plants in the midwest. I can assure you that, as of the mid 90s, UAW workers were still very lazy. You can say that there are few lazy workers there now due to automation, but guess what? They're still on the payroll. GM and others are still paying through the noze for thousands (if not tens of thousands) of workers that have no function at their plants due to modernization. They go in, clock in, play in the break room, and get paid $20+/hr. I asked my dad about them when he was on the road (between the late 80s through late 90s) and it was very persistent that many of them were still on the payroll.