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Rath on 17 January 2009
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mrstickball said:
Rath said:

And how is it scientific to claim that being a person begins at conception either? Thats the point - there is no scientific definition of personhood.

Where did you get your information that a baby can feel pain at 8 weeks? According to my source it is not until 29-30 weeks that a fetus is likely to be able to feel pain.

To be honest I think the current cut-off (around 23 weeks I think?) is about the right time for the cutoff for abortions, it gives plenty of time for the choice to be made.

The widely used medical textbook The Developing Human, Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th Edition, Moore, Persaud, Saunders, 1998, states at page 2 that "The intricate processes by which a baby develops from a single cell are miraculous .... This cell [the zygote] results from the union of an oocyte [egg] and sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being ...." At page 18 this theme is repeated: "Human development begins at fertilization [emphasis in original] ...."

As for the source you've given was proven to be published by a NARAL Lawyer, a Susan Lee, rather than an independant study. Here's a little info on said JAMA article: The paper was the focus of considerable controversy after its publication, in part because of revelations that the lead author, Susan J. Lee, had been employed as a lawyer for the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League, and that one of the co-authors, Dr. Eleanor A. Drey, directs the largest abortion clinic in San Francisco.

If you want the opposing view to the JAMA article, which offers insight into fetus pain, feel free to look at my source.

So it's quite arguable about when fetuses feel pain. However, the Thalamus (a strong prequisite for a being to feel pain) begins to develop within 10 days of conception, with it being fully developed at 8 weeks, as per my argument.

 

The development begins at fertilization but that does mean that personhood begins at fertilization. There is a difference.

Also I agree it is arguable when pain begins to be felt, there are more requirements for feeling pain than a thalamus however.