The War In Gaza

[Comrade Tovya]

superchunk said:

Comrade Tovya said:

 

Well, like I said, I keeping my opinion out of my comments (as mine involves the destruction of Hamas), and I'm playing the devil's advocate.

I'm simply saying that, if for arguements sake, neither Israel nor the Palestinians were to accept each other's existence (I don't believe this, but like I said, just for arguements sake), then I don't see any such plan for peace working.

And of course, I disagree that a comprehensive peace can be established by Israel "taking the first step" because at this point they are already half-way down the road (a lot more than a step to say the least).

So, like I said, if you are right in assuming that neither party thinks the other has a right to exist, then how can peace ever be attained in such an environment? 

You know what would impress me?  If the Palestinians dispossessed Hamas.  If they pulled that off, because the were sick of the violence, that would show me some real hope... it's not perfect, but it would show a step in the right direction.  Like I said, politics aside, the unilateral withdrawl from Gaza was a HUGE first step.

The next step should belong to the Palestinians... get rid of Hamas and terrorism.  And then Israel would lift the air & sea restrictions, and reduce the complications at checkpoints.  Hence, a lack of terrorism eliminates such needs.  And more importantly for the Israeli taxpayer, these measure are damn expensive too...

So, if true peace really is the goal, I think the people of Gaza need to boot Hamas out (even if it requires the military assistance of Jews to make it happen)... and then when they are gone, Israel can lift the restrictions, and as long as the Palestinians don't take advantage of the restriction lifting by commiting acts of terrorism, then there will be no reason for them anymore...

Do I think this is realistic?  No.  But it's the honest approach.  When Israel commits a military action in Gaza, they are not just deciding to do it because they have nothing better to do.  They do it out of reaction to terrorism.  So, the simple solution is stop the terrorism, and then there is no reason for military action. 

Trust me, if there is no terrorism, and the Israelis just suddenly decided to attack Gaza out of the blue just for entertainment purposes, I will be the first person in line to protest against Israeli aggression.  But as long as the military action is a reaction to terrorism, then I will remain firmly in the pro-Israel camp.

For a group to say, give us everything we want right now, or we'll kill you is no way to get what you are asking for.  Just like when my two-year-old wants his sippy, I only give it to him if he asks politely.  If he throws a fit and demands things, I ignore his request until he does it properly.  It's actually one of the basic expectations we have as human beings of one another.

 

oh, hypothetically saying, yes if the majority of both sides only wanted the destruction of the other then there is no way peace could happen, true.

RE: Removal of Hamas

Honestly, given the current situation on the ground (not the war, just the other normal Israeli restrictions/settlements/etc), there is absolutely now way the Palestinians will want to get rid of their only protectors, even if that protection is in reality a farce.

That would be like Israel agreeing to get rid of the IDF. It's not going to happen until they see no need to have a military option.

Woud I rather there be no Hamas military wing? of course.

RE: Bolded

What your not acknowledging is the psuedo-terrorism that happens in the territories against the Palestinians. The daily lives of a Palestinian, the extreame harsh conditions, the settlers, the IDF checkpoints, the IDF treatment, etc are the terrorism the Palestinians see.

Just because an Israeli isn't blowing himself up and getting on world wide TV doesn't negate the conditions that cause Palestinians to support Hamas' actions.

 

My professor for my Arab-Israeli conflict class put our discussion best when he said "Boths sides only look at thier stack of pictures. They only are capable of seeing the pictures of what the other side has done/does. Until both sides can give eachother duplicates of the pictures and realize all the wrong they are doing, there will be no peace." (paraphrased).

Not to attack you, but that is what I see you doing throughout our numerous conversations we have had. From my perspective you either choose to ignore what many of the zealot settlers and soldier do, or you are just unaware. You have sold yourself the idea that the horrible life the Palestinian lives under is a product of their own actions and as such Israel has the right to continue it. However, it wasn't but 100yrs ago when Jews lived under similar conditions in many parts of the world.

Until those living conditions change I don't see how anyone could expect a peacefull coexistance.

 

No, I don't see it as an attack brother.  I think you just missed some things I said because my posts are so long ;)

I actually insulted Jewish terrorists in my posts, and I was even specific and saying than I spit on them, which in my culture, spitting on the dead is as insulting as one can be.  So yes, while I spit on Palestinians terrorists, I spit on the Jewish ones as well.  Like I said before, I am an equal opportunity hater of terrorism.  And as I also stated before, I am more disgusted by my own sides terrorists because, well, they are on the same side of the fence as myself, and they dishonor our cause.  So never mistake me as an apologist, because as far as I am concerned the souls of terrorists can rot as far as I am concerned, even if they are of my own ethinic group.

And yes, you are correct when you say that it wasn't so long ago that Jews faced persecution.  But, Jews weren't asking for any territory in Europe, nor were they blowing themselves up on German child school buses (or anywhere for that matter)... Jews just wanted to be left alone, and they were led off to slaughter with very little resistance (not to say that I think they shouldn't have resisted, because they should have).  Also, Palestinians are not being led to a gas chamber.  If the Israelis wanted to destroy the Palestinians, they could kill every Palestinian in the territories in about 2 hours... they haven't done so because that's not what they want. The Jews of Europe on the other hand were rounded up for exactly those very reasons, and murdered.  They weren't commiting terrorism, they weren't doing anything... but they were Jews, and therefore were killed for that reason alone.

Palestinians obly die after they attack Israel with terrorism or rocket attacks, etc.  If tomorrow, no Palestinian shot a gun, or fired a rocket, I can promise you that not a single Palestinian would die again in war against Israel.

So, while I certainly respect your position, it's in no way the same thing.

The Jews said from day one that they wanted to live amongst the Arab world, and the Arabs rejected this idea from day one.  That's why there is war... it's historically founded.

Yes, times have changed, and if the Arab world has changed their minds, then they need to jump on the bandwagon and use their influence to force terrorism to stop.  They won't do this because it's a form of sacrilage to take the side of a Jew in Islam.  That's a huge part of this problem. 

The Arab leaders don't like terrorism, because it's a threat to their rule in their own nations as well.  But if they openly condemn terrorism against Jews, they are welcoming the same terrorism against their own nations.  So it's a catch-22.  If you don't condemn the terrorism, then they help validate it... but if they condemn it, they are encouraging it to happen within their own countries.  It's an endless cycle.

 

And as for second point