Comrade Tovya said:
I understand your point, and do respect your train of thought.
I guess the only question that remains is, what is not only a fair solutions, but one that will actually work and guarantee peace?
And all politics aside.... being realistic only...
I think it is fair to assume that this generation of Palestinians (not all of course, but the majority) will not accept a Jewish nation at all. So, considering that the Palestinian majority wants all of the land, from the river to the sea, how can this process ever work?
And like I said, forget about who we both think is more at fault, I'm not even considering that at all...
If in the perfect world, all hostilities ended tomorrow, how could peace be achieved unless both parties accept the other's right to exist on the land? What I am trying to say is, hypothetically, if the settlements in Judea and Samaria were completely disassembled tomorrow, and the Palestinians were in charge of their own destiny in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, could there be peace?
That's my biggest point really. Palestinian textbooks still do not even show Israel on the map... so this and the last few generations of Palestinians largely believe that there is no such thing as Israel, and that the whole of the land is occupied. So even if a full-withdrawl from the territories were to take place, no peace process would work until the large-majority of Palestinians agreed that Israel had a permanent right to the rest of the land.
In Israel, there are less than 10% of people that believe that the Palestinians should not be there at all, but 10% is a very small number that doesn't mean very much in a democratic society. The real problem as I see it for the Palestinians, is if the majority of the people of Palestine do not accept Israel's right to exist very quickly, the window for a Palestinian State is going to close very quickly.
That 10% minority in Israel is growing very rapidly. The right-wing religious Jews (as they are tagged) are out-breeding the left-wing families 8 to 1 every year. And more Israelis are joining the Zionist camp because many of them are giving up on the hope that peace is ever possible.
The Israelis made a 100% withdrawl from Gaza, and the attacks continued to come from Gaza anyway. So, all politics aside, the average Israeli sees that as an omen for what is to come. They are slowly coming to the idea that the Palestinians don't want the territories, they want it all. And if lefties feel like they can never appease the Palestinians, they'll give up eventually on the idea of Peace. And, well, that is a really bad thing for the Palestinians.
So, what are your thoughts? And I like I said, all politics aside... just the honest analysis of the situation.
The average Palestinian believes that the entire country is theirs from the river to the sea, and the average Israeli believes that everything within the "green line" is Israel. Both ideas can't coexist, so something has to give somewhere, or this whole process will never move along.
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Bolded is really the only part that is the kicker here.
Just as you think nearly all Palestinians won't accept Israel's existance, the Palestinians think that nearly 100% of Jews won't accept a Palestinian State.
Just as you see continued attacks regardless of what Israel does, i.e. leaving Gaza, the Palestinians see continued attacks, settlement expansions, and further prison-like lock downs of their people.
You see its a circle of hate and violence that creates these false ideas that neither majority really wants a peace with the other. There are over 3 million Palestinians living in the territories and millions just outside the gates. If all of them really only wanted to get rid of Israel why isn't there a massive influx of men attacking, roiting against every Jewish soldier/settlement around?
The map things I already touched in discussions with Final-Fan. They are the same thing as other Arab countries not allowing in more refugees. Arabs believe if they add Israel to the map without Israel creating a Palestine it is the same thing as giving up hope for ever seeing a Palestine. If Arab nations allow more refugees in, then who's left to struggle against what is seen as Israeli expansion?
This is why I keep insisting that Israel takes the first steps. They want to get rid of Hamas, they need to remove the reason why people support Hamas' military actions. Furthermore when Israel left and held their positions at the gate of Gaza, there were only rockets. No more suicide bombers, other attacks have reduce drastically. Why? because they nearly all origininated from Hamas' stronghold. WB is far less pro-Hamas and the PA has a better control. It has nothing to do with checkpoints and such. Afterall those existed in Gaza when the attacks were far worse that the occasional rocket.
The knowledge that the majority will actually accept peace is what needs to be forced down both sides throats. Just looking at the massive difference in quality of life in Israel and in the territories and that Israel has a much better control over its citizens is why I argue Israel needs to make the first real steps to show its intentions to the Palestinian public.
I hope it didnt' seem like I was getting political, those are just my ideas and firm beliefs on the matter.
