Ground troops in Gaza. Give me one good reason why this is needed?

[Comrade Tovya]

superchunk said:

Comrade Tovya said:

 

Okay, ONCE again...

You: "Israel must make the first real step. It must free up restrictions and actually hold a real truce."

Israel went on a 100% truce, and Hamas still fired rockets into Israel.

You: "It must state sit down with the Arab league (or a select influential group) and fundamentally agree to the premise that it will give back Golan Heights and the greater majority of WB."

The Golan Heights has nothing to do with the Palestinians, and only the Syrians which is not party to this particular "peace process"

You: "It must state that while Right of Return is an impossibility, it will give $$$$$$ and specific details of assistance to rebuild Palestine."

Israel does this now.  It provides economic aid at this moment, even though the Palestinians call Israel "the enemy".  Therefore, it can be safely assumed, that should the Palestinians called israel, "our friend", then at the very least economic aid would remain, but more than likely increase.  Hell, half of the planet's free-market economies have poured (and continue to pour) money into the Palestinian territories, but the Palestinians keep destroying their own industry.  After Israel withdrew from Gaza (in Gush Katif) they left behind an intact agricultural infrastructure, and the Palestinians came in and on day one destroyed the greenhouses... so, your point in kind of mute.  They were given the agricultural industry as a gift from the EU, and the Palestinians destroyed it.  That's just ignorant.

 

You: "Above all the Palestinian trying to grow his olives must be able to actually see real hope in their future."

The first "hope for their future" starts in their own backyard.  They need to disposses the Hamas leadership that continues to tear down what their own people build.  Bitch about the Israelis all you want, but it looks foolish when you elect a leadership that has promised you that they intend to bring war... if the Palestinians want hope, they need to embrace peace as the first option.  And they have not done this.

 

You: "It must crack down on settler and IDF violence with a zero tolerance policy."

IDF "violence" as you call it is a response to terrorism and rockets being fired into Israel.  Stop strapping bombs on your kids and shooting rockets at schools, and then there is no reason for the IDF to respond to such threats.

 

you: "Israel has to make the first moves. They hold all of the cards."

Israel made the first move, they have declared one truce after another, and remained non-reactive to terrorism... but you can only remain silent for so long.  Palestinians hold all of the cards, because if they Palestinians renounced violence as a means to independence, they would already have a country.  But, as the Palestinian leadership readily admits, their goal is not simply a Palestinian nation, their goal is a nation from "the river to the sea".  They will not accept a Jewish nation in the midst of pan-Arabia.

So the only way the Jews can ever get peace is if all Israelis pack their bags and move out of the middle east... which is not going to happen, and therefore, the Palestinian leadership will never accept peace from the "Jewish infidel" in their midst.  Hence, war shall remain a standard in the region until one side completely defeats the other.  Is it ideal?  No, but Muslims cannot accept a Jewish nation in their midst, and hence there can be no peace.

okay, ONCE again your complete denial of any Israeli wrong doing is why the peace process never goes forward. You are just like Hamas, the settlers, all of the quotes from various leaders of Israel, etc. You have no ability to see past your wall of hate.

I have routinely said things the Arabs have done wrong. I just listed a well thought out plan that gives Israel what it desires at as much a cost to Arabs as I realistically think they would agree to.

What do you do? You take on the PR war again.

How can you call Israel as upholding the truce when they effectively starve all of Gaza? I'm not just talking about food, but electricity, heat, fuel, etc. How could anyone expect Hamas or any Gazan to just sit there in that form of a truce forever? Your right, Israel didn't break the truce. There was never one to begin with. Israel never started to follow it.

I mentioned Golan Heights because I was referring to a peace solution with the entire region, not just Palestinians. Afterall if you expect any kind of stable neighbor you will need as much Arab support for the entire region as possible to ensure the remaining hardline radicals like Hamas are surpressed by everyone.

You mention Palestinians must dispose of Hamas, how? Israel is the one who created them. Why can't you understand that? They are a byproduct of a hopeless nation after decades of brutality. Not only do the give the illusion of military action and protection, but they also provide very real humane necessities to the people. Where PA is very corrupt and does very little, Hamas is not and builds tons of schools, hospitals, roads, etc. That is why the won a landslide victory in the elections. When Israel's aggression is gone, so too will Hamas' ability to make war.

The IDF violence is exactly as I described it. There are no rockets at the hundreds of checkpoints throughout the WB. There are no bombers in Arab villages when the settlers rampage through and the soldiers turn the other way. Not a single militant has come from my wife's family village, yet her brothers all realized this violence before the age of 8. An 8 year old shouldn't fear walking to school because one of the many soldiers they pass may hit them.

Israel did make the first moves, your right. They moved into Gaza and WB. Thankfully they have left Gaza. Now they need to start moving out of the parts of the WB that is obviously not going to be part of a final deal.

 

A) If you were actually reading this thread (which is obvious that you are not) you would have seen that I haven't absolved a single party of wrong doing.  Secondly, one of my very best friends is Palestinian (Abdul al-Harasheh, the guy I mentioned before) and we don't agree with each other in the conflict at all... but we are still the very close friends, so don't start that hate crap with me.  As I've stated before, I L-O-V-E the Palestinians, just as I love all humanity.  I hate no man on Earth.

B) Palestinians, as they have admitted (please ask me for the proof, because I'd love to prove you wrong again), will accept nothing less than a Palestine from "the river to the sea".  If there is a Palestine from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, that means there is no Israel, and that's not peace.  So, as has been admitted by Palestinians and other Arabs (openly), they can never accept a Jewish state in the middle of the Arab world.

C) Purposely using your kids as human shields for PR is an act of cowardice.  No man would hide behind a child... and "desperation" is not a good reason.  I man places himself in harms way and protects children.  So don't start the PR mess with me, because there is no excuse for having children stand in between you and gunfire. 

D) One peace process at a time... and as I stated before, the Golan has nothing to do with the Palestinians.  If we gave every Muslims nation what they wanted to achieve peace, then no Jewish nation would exist.  Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, the Palestinians, and other terror groups openly admit that they will not make peace, because their goal is to "drive the Jews into the sea"... they do not want the territories, they want all of Israel to be part of the greater Islamic nation.  Once again, this is not me saying that, this is the Islam world saying this.  If you'd like me to prove this to you as well, just ask.  I've done this enough times already, and I'm more than willing to prove you wrong again.

E) Hamas is a murderous organization whose only goal is to destroy Israel... it's not me saying this, it's Hamas saying this.

F) There WAS violence at all of the checkpoints, but the checkpoints have been largely successful in keeping terrorists out of Israel.  For the 50th time, pleace challenge me on this, because I will show you video after video of proof.  The things that I state are not opinion, but verifiable proof that Hamas and other terror organizations readily agree to.

G) Israel has no incentive to move out of the other zones, because Hamas has already shown that it's fruitless.  They moved out of Gaza, 100%... and what did Israel get as a reward?  Terrorism, rocket attacks, and shelling from those exact same places.  Arabs like to claim that right-wing Jews are crazy, but they have shown themselves to be correct.  The right-wing said that if Israel pulled out of Gaza, the Palestinians would use their uncontained freedom as a staging point for terrorism.  They were right.

Therefore, let the Palestinians prove that when they obtain a new territory, they will not use that gift to kill Jews, otherwise, they'll just have to forget about getting the rest of it.

In closing, please keep this conversation easy to read... responf to each point, one-by-one, and don't skip over anything.  I responded to you, point-by-point, so please show me the same respect.

I have not stated my opinion on any issue that you and I have talked about... I have stuck to the facts.  Therefore, when you breakdown my responses, keep this in mind... if you say that I am lying or don't know what I am talking about, make certain that you are 100% sure.  Because I have already bookmarked each link that verifies my statements, and these "proofs" are each televised speeches from Hamas or other Palestinian organizations that verify my beliefs.  Therefore, when I say, "the Palestinians said...", I really do mean it, and I can prove it by showing you a clip from their own words.