Ground troops in Gaza. Give me one good reason why this is needed?

[Comrade Tovya]

superchunk said:

Comrade Tovya said:

superchunk said:
Palestinians have embraced death because it has more to offer than the life under Israeli imprisonment.

Its called losing all hope and is exactly the problem with the majority of the Middle East right now. This is the reason we have so many extremist ideologies from that region, this is the reason we have suicide bombers.

This invasion and bombing isn't the real problem, the real problem is the occupation, imprisonment, starvation, no electricity, no jobs, no connection with the outside world, constant harassment from IDF and settlers, no freedom of mobility, no future life of any king being presented to the average Palestinian.

Israel is causing its own terrorism. Israel can fix this by simply discontinuing its illegal acquisition and occupation of Arab lands. This isn't the 1960's and 70's. Arabs by large have given up their fruitless claims to Israel Proper, as evidenced in 2001 or 2000 when they all presented Israel with a full peace plan for the entire region where all Israel had to do was return to their own country to have full peace and normal relations with everyone.

However, Israel didn't even discuss it and instead to continue the bloodshed of its own people.

What kind of people are the Israelis who vote for these leaders who would rather see their people have to hide from missiles and their sons and daughters in IDF facing a constant enemy whose only desire is death?

 

Don't even make me break out the speeches of Hamas saying that they will accept nothing but the dstruction of the state of Israel.  There is no peace, because the Palestinian leadership admits that they don't want it... they want to "drive the Jews into the sea".  That is their admitted goal, which cannot be denied, because they admit it on TV.  So it's not a matter of my opinion, it's a matter of Hamas admits that this is the only outcome they will accept... "Palestine, from the River to the Sea"

 

why is it you always resort back to the one group that will never change. I was talking about the entire Arab league, i.e. the leaders of the Arab world that actually matter and as a group could force Hamas to sit down and shut up.

So that's not a matter of my opinion, its a matter of the entire Arab League giving Israel a perfect oppurtunity to grasp peace for its people, but apparently they only outcome they will accept...

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

 

yeah, only the Arabs talk about killing off the other... I could go on, but it is pointless past rhetoric spoken by racists bigots. The future is in the now and Arabs have tried at least once for real peace, as I noted earlier.

 

 

As for your question as to why I continue to resort back to Hamas... is it not obvious??  You yourself stated that Hamas was demoractically elected to lead the Palestinian people.  So how is the group, whom the Palestinians chose to lead them, not relavent to the conversation?

One of Hamas' many election promises to the voters was to "defeat the Zionist enemy" and "drive them into the sea".

That was their political platform, and the Palestinian people voted for them because of their promises.

Let's just play a pretend scenario here.  Let's just say a guy came around in America saying that he wanted to enslave African-Americans again, and he wanted Americans elect him to the office of the Presidency.  And for arguements sake, let's just say that a majority of voters voted him into power.

Would it be safe to assume, in such a scenario, that the average American is a racist bigot?  Uh.. yes.  Why?  Because if they believed in equal rights for all, the majority wouldn't have voted for such a disgusting bigot to begin with.

Therefore, in this real world scenario of Hamas....

They ran a platform of killing the Jews, and the Palestinians overwhelmingly voted them into power based on this platform.  Hence, it is safe to assume that the average Palestinian wants to drive the Jews into the sea, and take all of Israel, and make it Palestine.

So, yes, Hamas as the leader bears the brunt of the responsibility.  But the people who voted for such a murderous platform cannot escape responsibility of this either, because they are the one's who placed Hamas in the position of power to begin with.

And if it is true, as you stated, that the Arab world could force these measures on Hamas, where are they?  They took power nearly 3 years ago, and the Arab world is silent.  Do I think that the Arab leaders despise Hamas?  Yes, without a doubt.  They know that a fundementalist group seizing power in their nation is a surreal possiblity.  But, they cannot openly support Israel's war against Hamas, or will bear the brunt of riots from their own people for doing so.

Therefore, since the Arab nation are forced into silence to avoid internal mutiny, how exactly do expect your plan to work?