Pope: Gayness as dangerous as the rainforest being destroyed.

[Comrade Tovya]

appolose said:

Comrade Tovya said:

 

A) I get what you are saying, and I am not saying that "Heaven" as a destination is not possible.  My simple point is that one should not tell people that they are "going to Heaven" for performing a certain action, because the truth be known, that person has no idea where the final destination of the righteous is.  They may think that they have a good idea of where, but they do not know for sure, so it wouldn't be wise to play God and tell someone that it's Heaven or Hell... because the Bible certainly does not say that Heaven is the destination of the righteous.

B) Okay, well, at least one topic is dead ;)

C) Right, righteous and/or holy beings can go before God because God's holiness would not strike down a pure being.  Like I said, there is a long explination for this concerning the Aron haBris (Ark of the Covenant) and the temple.  The rules for the Kohanim and Leviim and their ability to stand before the Holy of Holies and the Ark is very specific as to the rules for purity so that they would not drop dead in the presence of the spirit of God.  Satan, if he were truly rebelious and evil, would not meet the requirements for purification... like I said, it's hard to explain this to a Christian because they have not been raised to understand the requirement of emmersion in the mikvah, the standards for keeping the Holy rules of eating per the laws of kashrus, and so many laws that it would take years for you to learn them.

Like I said, that's why Christians just don't get it.  You have to be raised in a Observant Jewish household, go to day school, etc to understand these rules of purification and standing before God at the alter.  That's why there were a select few who were deemed worthy within the priestly sect.

So, until the end of time, Christians will continue to bang their heads against a wall because we cannot be converted... because they just don't understand what we know.  A Jew is a "Shomer haBris"... and that's something that a Christian cannot understand. 

D) And nowhere in the Jewish scriptures does it say that God requires perfection.  So when a Christian comes along and says that he does, that Jew knows better.  A Jew knows the scriptures inside and out, and like I've said before, can read the original writing and doesn't need an English (or whatever language) translation.

I don't need a Christian to tell me what God said, because I can read the original words on scrolls that are hundreds if not thousands of years old...

Like I've said before, the Christian has been raised to believe that God requires perfection, or, well, you're screwed without that blood sacrifice.  Someone who is Jewish or a ben-Noach knows has been raised to know that God has never required our perfection, only the constant striving towards betterment.

Once again, that's why Jews can't be converted with any success... you say God requires perfection, but a Jew knows better.

E) Once again, there was never a need for J.C. to "take a bullet"... God doesn't require perfection.. never has, and never will.  Like I've said before, if you think I am wrong, show me in the Tanach where it says otherwise.  It doesn't say any such thing.

In closing, Christians consistently fail in their attempts to convert Jews because they continue to ask "why" and Christians continue to respond, "because Jesus said..."

I'm sorry, but that's not a good answer.  It's no different than a Muslim telling you to believe in the Quran because, "Mohammed said...."

You wouldn't listen, because you don't revere Mohammed any more than I revere Jesus.

A)  In that case, I'm going to have simply to disagree with you.  (Another one dead!)

B) RIP

C)  But you yourself said they had to meet the requirments because they would die otherwise.  Satan, being non-physical, does not have this problem.  So that doesn't mean evil cannot be in the presence of God. My apologizes for asserting myself so in this area; I don't want to come across like a Lego player telling an architect how to make a building, but  I feel the point is valid nontheless.

D) You mean, perfection as in never sinning?  Then this will probably be a divergent topic for us as well, because for the Christian, Romans (New Testament speaking) specifically says one sin equates to damnation, and no amount of works can eve redeem a person.  Old testament-wise, I'd probably take a far longer time to find that theology.

E)  Of course, I wouldn't be able to convince you of it that way; I'd first have to convince of my own position of Jesus.  So we would have to disagree on this again; I, taking the Christian position, think sacrifice is needed (for redemption).  You, at the Jewish position, do not.  But in any event, this whole time I was merely trying to establish and internally defend Christian theology, not necessarily convince anyone that is was actually true.

 

 

On (C) you are correct in asserting death for the human flesh, and the scriptures do not state the punishment of the soul... so I certainly will not speculate.

But with that being said, if for arguements sake, God can allow evil in his presence without the need for "purification" by a being in the spiritual form, that once again kills the idea that J.C. is needed for such a purpose.  Because if that person doesn't need an act of purification to stand before God, then that person can also go without the "blood of Jesus" and be with God... afterall, they are already dead, and hence do not need to purify themself out of fear of death before the almighty (they are already dead).

Long story short, the Christian idea of righteousness and the Jewish one are not in the least bit the same.

I know that it is hard to understand, but you just don't know what I know.  You were raised different than I, and of course, read a different Bible than I.  So it's something you'll probably never really understand.

You could understand, but that would require that you first learn to read the scriptures in Hebrew, and then completely forget everything that you were told growing up, and pretend like you don't know a thing... and then open up the Torah and start fresh from Bereishis 1:1 (genesis 1:1).  That's very hard to do, which is why a Christian will not do this.  It takes YEARS to learn Hebrew, and even longer to be proficient at it... and on top of this, you'd have to convince yourself that you know nothing at all, and start fresh. 

Do I think that it's worthwhile to do such?  Absolutely.  You'll be shocked at what you've been missing all these years, and really, you'll probably be angry that you had a bunch of lies shoved down your throat your whole life.

If you really do believe that you will stand before God one day, what will you do if you were wrong all along?  How will you react to God when you realize that you have been worshiping a man and not God?  Simple "faith" will not be enough to save you for blasphemy and worshiping of a false diety.

I know that sounds crazy, but Christians tell me that all the time... "If you don't believe in Jesus, you will burn in hell"

And I say to that same Christian, "You should be the one who is afraid.. for you are the one ignoring Hashem the God of creation and worshiping a man named Jesus and calling him God."