Pope: Gayness as dangerous as the rainforest being destroyed.

[Comrade Tovya]

appolose said:

Comrade Tovya said:

appolose said:

A) It can be directly inferred that they will.  It says faith makes you righteous, and if you die with faith, then you must also die with righteousness.  Therefore, the righteous will go to heaven.

B) That assumes that Satan actually knew about God's omnipotence.  While it seems obvious that he would know, there is no way to tell how things worked in the spiritual realm.  Satan could have rebelled without knowing that God could defeat him.  Also, Satan could have known but done it anyway; perahps he thought God wouldn't resist (whatever kind of "war" it was).  These are not absurd suggestions; we would know nothing about how the spiritual realm works, so we can't really make large assumptions about it.

C) Actually, that's an example of evil not being in the presence of God, not the other way around.  Of course, that doesn't solve the problem, but just clarifies it.  Anyways, you assume that this must be a universal standard, and that this is a standard, because: 1. It merely says Aaron wasn't righteous enough to see God, not why he had to be righteous.  For example, perhaps unrighteous humans are killed by God's presence (which could happen).  Also it doesn't say all evil couldn't be in God's presence, just not the semi-righteous Aaron.

D) Some parts of Christianity do indeed teach that men are born sinners; others don't.  Calvinism teaches the former.  I, an Arminian, believe the latter.  Whatever the answer is, however, we both agree that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans something).  As such, all need redemption.  I would argue that the Christian doctrine of salvation does not necessarily count as a new covenant, it's actually what was promised all along (and I'll just leave it at that, because that would take forever to exegete), so nothing may be replace in that sense.

E) That directly contradicts the verse about laying down ones own life, though.  The connotation of the human-sacrifice verse is strictly referring to one sacrificing another (I will posit).  Also, God doesn't necessarily submit to the rules he gives out; some are merely commands for our well being, so he would not need to heed them.  He can even kill us indiscriminately (I think), and that would be fine because everything is His, and He only told that law to us, not himself (I'm not ssaying that God can do what he calls abominations, just clarifying God and law (and I'm not saying that all human sacrifice is an abomination, just one against the other, so God can do it)).

 

A) I agree with a lot of what you say, but like I said, the Bible doesn't say that "heaven" is the desitination of the righteous.  It never says that one time... that's one of the funny things to me really.  The protestant churches broke off from the mother church (Catholic Church) but they continue to repeat the same jargon that was passed at the Catholic, "Counicl of Nicea".  It's not Biblically founded that the desitination of the righteous is Heaven.  It's just popular belief.

B) Now I agree with the assumption that the spiritual is unbeknownst to us... but to say that a being whose sole purpose for creation (the service of God) could actually make the concious choice to rebel against him is just not logical.  I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one... there's just no way that I'll ever believe that angels made war on God, it's just not logical.

C) Right, right, but you are missing my very small and simple point.  Forget everything else for just a moment.  Do you believe that Aaron, or Satan is more righteous according to your Christian ideology.  I think it goes without saying that Aaron is more revered than the "evil" Satan... Therefore, if the "semi" righteous Aaron is unfit to be in the presence of God, then the complete opposite of righteousness, the Christian version of Satan, certainly could not stand before the almighty.  If Satan is even a little bit righteous (therefore allowing his presence in heaven, and standing before God) then there is no way this guy made war on God. 

D)  The Bible, prior to J.C. walking on the Earth, never once stated that men were born into sin... once again, this false doctrine was fabricated by the Council of Nicea.  Prior to that meeting, the concept of "original sin" didn't exist.  Moses walked with God before he even performed the sacfifices of attonement, and God saw that he was still righteous.  Sacrifice has never been a rock hard requirement for righteousness.  Please don't ask me to explain the original meaning of the Temple sacrifices, because that a 35-page lecture in itself.  Just believe me when I say as a guy who was raised in a Torah observant home that I know a thing or two about it.

E) I know where you are going with this, but it doesn't work.  According to the Christian Bible, J.C. clearly states (according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John) that he is a human sacrifice to make "blood attonement" on the "alter" for the sins of mankind.  That's not the same thing as jumping in front of a bullet to save a mans life... that is honorable.  But God more than once punished the Israelites for sacrificing their children for attonement.  He said it was a pagan and detestible practise... and "abomination".

 

A)  It does say, thought, that the resurrected will be with God, that Jesus is going to the "Father's house" to prepare a place for the saved, and Revelation has the saints around God's throne and multitudes more all around (and so on).  While one may argue that these places aren't heaven, I'm fairly sure they at least might as well be.

B) OK, I'll leave it at what we've said.  I'll just disagree and posit it is logical.

C) I can't find the passage to which your referring, but I'll argue that it does not say unfit (if it does, it does not mean unworthy).  And I certainly agree that Satan, in this idea, is decidely less righteous than Aaron.  To extract the idea that evil is disallowed audience to God is assumptuous in the fact that the passage does not say why Aaron's evil prohibited him (i.e., God's presence could have killed him; not a problem for Satan)

D) While I would agree with you that people are not born guilty, scripturally speaking, Romans does neverthless say that all have sinned anyways, so the point is moot.  While Moses was indeed considered righteous without having sacrificied anything, this only works because Christ was to be the sacrifice that allowed faith to act as righteousness.  Now, on the subject of atonement through sacrifice, I would have to, unfortunately, disagree and say the point of sacrifice was atonement (that is, Jesus's was; I agree that the animal sacrifices don't actually atone for anything).

E) But your objection relies on the fact that that the Israelites performing human sacrifice were still one-to-another, which is what I think the verse was forbidding (not self).  And I would consider Jesus sacrificing himself to be akin to body-blocking a bullet (lol); Christian theology posits that Jesus willingly took the punishment for us (it was coming for us, but he choose to take it himself).

 

 

A) I get what you are saying, and I am not saying that "Heaven" as a destination is not possible.  My simple point is that one should not tell people that they are "going to Heaven" for performing a certain action, because the truth be known, that person has no idea where the final destination of the righteous is.  They may think that they have a good idea of where, but they do not know for sure, so it wouldn't be wise to play God and tell someone that it's Heaven or Hell... because the Bible certainly does not say that Heaven is the destination of the righteous.

B) Okay, well, at least one topic is dead ;)

C) Right, righteous and/or holy beings can go before God because God's holiness would not strike down a pure being.  Like I said, there is a long explination for this concerning the Aron haBris (Ark of the Covenant) and the temple.  The rules for the Kohanim and Leviim and their ability to stand before the Holy of Holies and the Ark is very specific as to the rules for purity so that they would not drop dead in the presence of the spirit of God.  Satan, if he were truly rebelious and evil, would not meet the requirements for purification... like I said, it's hard to explain this to a Christian because they have not been raised to understand the requirement of emmersion in the mikvah, the standards for keeping the Holy rules of eating per the laws of kashrus, and so many laws that it would take years for you to learn them.

Like I said, that's why Christians just don't get it.  You have to be raised in a Observant Jewish household, go to day school, etc to understand these rules of purification and standing before God at the alter.  That's why there were a select few who were deemed worthy within the priestly sect.

So, until the end of time, Christians will continue to bang their heads against a wall because we cannot be converted... because they just don't understand what we know.  A Jew is a "Shomer haBris"... and that's something that a Christian cannot understand. 

D) And nowhere in the Jewish scriptures does it say that God requires perfection.  So when a Christian comes along and says that he does, that Jew knows better.  A Jew knows the scriptures inside and out, and like I've said before, can read the original writing and doesn't need an English (or whatever language) translation.

I don't need a Christian to tell me what God said, because I can read the original words on scrolls that are hundreds if not thousands of years old...

Like I've said before, the Christian has been raised to believe that God requires perfection, or, well, you're screwed without that blood sacrifice.  Someone who is Jewish or a ben-Noach knows has been raised to know that God has never required our perfection, only the constant striving towards betterment.

Once again, that's why Jews can't be converted with any success... you say God requires perfection, but a Jew knows better.

E) Once again, there was never a need for J.C. to "take a bullet"... God doesn't require perfection.. never has, and never will.  Like I've said before, if you think I am wrong, show me in the Tanach where it says otherwise.  It doesn't say any such thing.

In closing, Christians consistently fail in their attempts to convert Jews because they continue to ask "why" and Christians continue to respond, "because Jesus said..."

I'm sorry, but that's not a good answer.  It's no different than a Muslim telling you to believe in the Quran because, "Mohammed said...."

You wouldn't listen, because you don't revere Mohammed any more than I revere Jesus.