Pope: Gayness as dangerous as the rainforest being destroyed.

[Comrade Tovya]

appolose said:

Comrade Tovya said:

appolose said:

steven787 said:
I understand, your post seemed like you thought I was trying to say the bible didn't condemn homosexuality.

Really, it condemns everybody in one way or another. It was written to make us feel guilty and ask/tithe for forgiveness.

 

I see. 

Yes, it does condemn everyone.  But that's where salvation is supposed to come in.

@Tovya

The Bible does teach that the righteous will see God, and that the unrighteous will indeed be thrown into Hell (annihilation or eternal torment, take your pick).  Jesus also, for example, mentioned (hyperbole (in a way)) cutting off your hand so you might not sin yourself into Hell.  So the Bible does very much teach Heaven and Hell.

 

No, the Bible does not teach that the righteous will "see" God.  But I will agree that the so-called "unrighteous" will be thrown into hell according to the "New" Testament... but the New Testament has no more bearing on me than the Quran does for you.  So it's a null point really.

But, the Christian Bible, nor the Jewish Bible says that if you are righteous you will "go to Heaven".  If you think I am wrong, please do show me a direct quote that says otherwise.  It just isn't there.

Prior to the "New" Testament, there was no hell mentioned ever...

There was no mention of Jesus either, but that's not necessarily relevant.  In any event, as for proving that the righteous will be going to heaven; Romans 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'"  And then Romans 10:9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your hear the God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".  Therefore, faith equates to righteousness, faith leads to salvation, and, thus, the righteous are saved.   This is one example of may others (I posit).

Actually, the rebelious evil fallen angel Satan as Christianity would have you believe is no more than a servant of God in the Jewish tradition (and this can be proven in the "Old" Testament).

It's actually simple reasoning really... just allow me to show you such:

Here we've got this almight being that we all call God... he gets tired of these angels because they only worship him because, well, they have to.  They don't have free will... God said they are his servants, and therefore they are.

So God gets tired of this, and one day decides to form a new creation... man.  Why would he do this?  Well, he told us actually... he created us because wanted us to have the FREE WILL to decide whether or not to worship him (he already has drones who worship him called angels).  Therefore we can either sin or be righteous, and he'll never force one way or another upon us.  You following me?

Anyway, thousands of years go by, and this guy named Job comes along.  I'm sure you've heard the story, but I'll just recap it for you anyway.

This guy Job is blessed beyond belief... he's rich, he has a wonderful family, he reveres God... His life is PERFECT.

Well, up there in Heaven, next to God, there's this prosecuting attorney angel named "Satan" who tells God that Job only loves him because his life is so blessed and perfect.  And long story short, God gives this Satan the power to destroy his life... with only one exception:  He can't kill Job.  And Satan says "yes sir, as you wish".

Now wait a minute here... I thought Satan was the rebelious angel who defied God's every will?  I mean after all, he made war against God according to Christianity, right?

And it's safe to assume that if you declare war on God and then are supposedly "cast from heaven" way back before creation, you certainly aren't righteous, right?

So if this so-called "war against God" really happened, then why is Satan standing beside God in heaven?  I mean, afterall, both Christian and Jewish tradition teaches us that God cannot be in the presence of evil, right?  So why exactly is this so-called "rebel against God" (the ultimate sinner) standing next to God after he had been cast out of heaven?

Oh, but that's not the only problem we face here.  If this Satan guy had the guts to make war against God, and is the epitomy of the definition of a rebel.. then why is he taking order from God by agreeing not to kill Job?  I mean, afterall, if you have the guts to declare war on the almighty, chances are you are not going to let that same fellow tell you what to do when it comes to a mere mortal, right?

And even more importantly, since we all agree that man was created different than the angels by having the ability of free will, how did this evil Satan guy ever make the concious decision to make war on God to begin with?  After all, he's supposed to be an angel, and henceforth, shouldn't have the ability to decide to make war on God to begin with.

Are you following me here?  Something about Christianity's account of this crazy guy "Satan" just doesn't add up to being kosher.

If he's an angel, he doesn't have the free will to make war on God, and even if God let him anyway just for wholesome entertainment value, how the heck did this "rebel" get to go back to heaven (which is impossible for enemies of God, no?) and then decide later on that he'd take orders from God even though he's already shown that he doesn't revere God to begin with.

Something just doesn't add up, right?  And if there is no Satan, then there is no hell...

So the Jewish way is not the way of fire and damnation for the sinner.. it's the belief that judgement belongs to God alone.  And what is the punishment that God will deliver to the unrighteous?  I don't know, and I would never play the role of God by passing judgement on any man for his actions by threatening him with eternal damnation.  Playing the role of God... now that's a REAL sin.

The problem here is you assume, by God telling Satan not to kill Job, that God is merely giving Satan a command.  However, he's not saying "You won't do this, because I told you so", he saying "You won't do this, because I, being omnipotent, will prevent you from doing it".  Satan's not doing what he says out of obedience, but out of helplessness.

In any event, it's hardly playing the role of God if were just doing what we think He tells us to do.  He says go and save people, because people have sinned.  So in order to try to save a person, one would have to admit that they have sinned.  Of course I'll "pass judgement" on someone; if they do something that the Bible forbids, and if I think the Bible is true, how on Earth could I not?

 

 

No, you are missing my point... God never said that the righteous will "go to heaven".  It's just popular myth.

And yes, it is quite relevant when you tell people that "God will allow you into the pearly gates of Heaven" when such a thing may never happen.  If you truly revere God, is it not a form of blasphemy to put words into his mouth? God never stated such, and it's evil to put words into the mouth of God. 

Hypothetically, if I told your mother that I was going to get her out of debt and move her from her cardboard box, and into a nice little house, and then never showed up... wouldn't that be wrong?

And as for your last point, with that train of thought, then you are saying that God was being dishonest when he said that angels didn't have freewill?  It takes freewill to make the choice to declare war on God.  Angels have never had this... so how could this have happened?  If God intended to give angels the freewill of rebelion, then he could have just as easily gave them to freewill to worship him by choice.. in which case there would have been no purpose for the creation of man.

Secondly, another point you are skipping is that God is unable to be in the presence of sin.  Heaven is "pure" and "perfect".  So if Satan really is a sinful rebel against God, then he is unable to enter Heaven and stand at the side of God to pass judgement on the man named Job.

And if Satan really could go to war against God, he sure as heck could also make the choice to rebel against God again and strike down Job in defiance of the almighty.

The point is, Christianity's idea of righteousness is that the belief that a man/god died for you makes you perfect before God... and that's just not in line with what the Tanach (the "old" Testament) says about righteousness.  And don't get me started on the sacrifice thing, because that's another issue all together.  God doesn't accept the sacrifice of human beings as attonement for sin anyway... and furthermore, the Torah is quite specific that human sacrifice is an abomination to God as well.  And far be it from God to tell us something is evil, only to turn around and do the same thing himself.  If God is not without blemish, then he's not God at all.

So it's safe to assume that if you truly believe that God is perfect, then we can know that he is no hypocritical tyrant that tells us not to do something that he himself would do.