del Toro: "There are only two games I consider masterpieces..."

[Reasonable]

famousringo said:

Reasonable said:

MrMarc said:
It's nice to know that over 25 years of consoles have been kind enough to give us all of two masterpieces...

He's talking 'games as art' that he's played.  Out of all the games I've played those two (and maybe Silent Hill 2) are the only ones that would spring to mind - and I started playing games when you had to go to an Arcade never mind a home console!

Zelda. Metroid, Half Life etc. are all great games but I wouldn't consider them art.  ICO and SOTC I would.  I guess I'm not alone in that although others might disagree.

I think elements of other games (Deus Ex & Half Life 2 spring to mind) come close but few games carry off their themes as well as ICO and SOTC (and Silent Hill 2 - got to keep mentioning that).

 

Then I'd say Del Toro's mistake and your own is that you don't think good game design is an art. You just see it as a vector for storytelling, which would seem to be the narrow definition of art that you accept.

Super Mario Bros. has reached so many millions of people and become a monolithic cultural artifact, but you don't think it's art? A game doesn't need an elborate story or a sympathetic character to express the ideas of its creator(s).

Architecture and many paintings manage to be art without epic stories or sympathetic characters. Nobody seems to have trouble accepting that.

 

Super Mario Bros. is a great game - but I don't see what I see looking at a painting or looking at an amazing building (or ICO).  I see a great game with zero meaning other than the fun you have playing it.  For me Art has to convey something - and it might just be me (although I know its not) but Super Mario Bros. is a great game but nothing more.  Now I've seen art featuring Mario character - but the game itself?  No.  Not by my definition of art.

Also, don't mix up a cultural artifact with a piece of art.  Batman is a cultural artifact, but you still have to create a piece of art featuring him to actually have something to regard.

And no - I don't think good game design is art anymore than I think the rules of Tennis is art.  A game of Tennis could be Art, as could a game of chess, etc.  But it would be a combination of the players, the event and what they create, not the game itself.