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Hawkeye said:

Didn't read past the first paragparh, but reading the rest I would say it ties into my Smahs argument anyway.

I play clarinet, and for some reason I find difficult to master pieces that take a ton of work but sound awsome and make everyone impressed more "fun" than simple tunes I can play by ear perfectly, such as "deck the halls with boughs of holly"

I think gaming is the same way. Non-gamers like granny have no skill, so the only games they can enjoy are Wii music and Wii sports. Its a new expierience though, so it will be enjoyable. Pretty soon they will be a casual dilitante gaming granny, and will buy a DS and enjoy brain age and tetris and Nintendogs and mario kart DS and New Super mario bros. But they will never know the joy of getting fully eppiced in WoW and taking on a hihg level raid with a group of close online friends; the fun is much greater than that of Wii music, but it takes alot of time investment/skill.

Therefore, I argue that the harder games are, the more fun they are too play, AS LONG AS you have the skill to play it. In a post earlier this year, Disolitude said he loved Ninja Gaiden 2, a game that takes great skill. This game is considered "hardcore" because whjile it is highly enjoyable for some, it is only enjoyable if  you are greatly skilled at a certain genre of video game.

This is also why smash bros is the greatest series ever; it is fun no matter how skilled you are at the game!

I would hardly say that someone who had an obsessive compulsive disorder, and had to repeat their actions 20 times before they movied on, was enjoying life more than someone who didn't have this disorder. In a similar fashion, I don't think you can claim that someone who ran through the same dungeon 20 times to get enough equipment to move up to the next dungeon and run it 20 times is having more fun than someone who plays other games.