Mass Effect or what All next gen RPGs Should Strive to Be...

[mrstickball]

Great post. My respect for you have rised. I just disagree on some points you made about western and J-RPG.

1) there is a lot of gameplay difference from DQ3 to DQ8. I know it is not like the difference from FF4 and FF12, but it is still there. DQ3 use some hybrid job system and recuitable characters that have no important role in the story. DQ 5 let you use monsters and level them up like any character and by the end of the game they are much better than the plot characters. DQ6 and 7 screw up the gameplay IMO. You have a job system where your abilities carry over or can be combined with abilities from other jobs. Monsters are avaible and can also learn jobs. DQ 8 ignores jobs and monsters and have only 4 playable characters, it is almost as simple as DQ 2. The difference is that you chose your skills and abilities by allocating points at level ups (kinda like Diablo 2). I think that saying that alchemy and job class is the only difference is too much. I agree that the "core" and the feeling of the series is the same, but DQ made more than minor changes. DQ5, DQ7 and DQ 8 gameplay is not that similar, some people love DQ 7 and hate 8, others love 8 and dislike the 6 and 7.

2) I agree that most J-RPG try to be like FF in some way. I do not think that DQ and CT have as much influence as FF. DQ is some kind of social phenomenon in Japan and what works for it does not work for others. The first person perspective in battles and the odd menu have not been used succesfully by other games. CT is the best RPG IMO also, but I have never seen a game that tries such a ambitious and innovative formula. I do not think many games uses CT as inspiration. You forgot to mention other J-RPGs that do evolve the genre and keep it fresh, the Tales of series (phantasia and Symphonia especially). That game is so unique that labeling them as just another J-RPG is unfair.

3) I strongly disagree about western RPGs being more diverse. They are as diverse as J-RPGs. If you use only the well know and mainstream J-RPGs you will get this impression. Try looking at Japanese only games like Persona and Shin Megami Tensei. In terms of gameplay J-RPGs are diverse no matter if you look at popular games or not. Compare Disgaea, CT, Dragon Quest 7, FF 12, Odim Sphere, Front Mission, Parasite Eve, Breath of Fire 5, Xenosaga, Shin Megami Tensei, Tales of Symphonia. Artistically most of them look alike, but IMO so does WRPGs. Even without playing these games one just need to look at them to say they feel "japanese". this characteristic is also avaible in WRPG.

I do not have a lot experience in playing WRPGs, but I do not think they try too hard to evolve the genre or are that different. For example: what would be left of WRPGs without Tolkien`s characters and universe inspiration? The gameplay uses a lot of formulas from the pen and paper RPGs that the nerd community love. The criticism I have about WRPG is that they are too complex and do not appeal to newbies.I could not even start some games because I was confused trying to imagine how to distribute the points to a female dwarf bard with thief subjob. i can not even imagine how a male vampire warlock would look like or that a female troll could be a priest. These games demand a lot of time just to understant what they are about.

I am not saying that J-RPG is better, I think we should avoid these kind of comparisons at all costs. They have a lot of problems of similar nature like anime influence and strange dressing codes. My point is that just a few games evolve the genre, like CT in J-RPG and KOTOR in WRPGs (according to your analisys).

1. I know that there are minor changes, but again, in my case, the last time I played DQ, it was #3, and when I played DQ8, there was no learning curve. The spells, weapons, grinding, battle system, plot twist, and many core aspects were the same, exact thing. To me, it was just so.....odd. From KOTOR to ME though, it seems alien, despite the fact they're in the same genre, type, and everything....But all of those changed are in a 5yr span.

2. When I was reffering to the JRPG genre, I know, and agree there's quite a difference in combat systems between Tales of, and FF or DQ, nevertheless, the art is very similar, direction, pacing,menus, towns, money/economy systems,  ect is very similar. Like you said, the most influential are stale, and that's my gripe with JRPGs. CT was the best RPG made (imo), but despite that, no one has really tried to be "as good" and unique at JRPGs like CT, and managed over 1m copies in Japan. Consumers in Japan, as I said, have played a poor, brutal part in this, as they encourage the same thing over and over, by awarding the same rehashed system more and more sales. Odin Sphere is a great example. Shining series #500 sold more than the amitious Odin Sphere.

3. Artisically, tell me how Baldurs Gate, Betrayl in Antara, Ultima, Elder Scrolls: Arena, D&D series, Might & Magic (OG or Heroes), Fallout, and such have even the same art direction even? The major JRPG series, again although different in a few ways, share far more components than the games I listed. The only major similarity in some (definately not all) is the D&D combat system.

Tolkien's work is just as popular, and influential in JRPGs as WRPGs...Don't forget his influences in all of it. I agree that there are tons of fresh, unique, great JRPGs, but the "big ones" are far similar, and mundane than the big CRPGs. Go download Betrayl at Krondor, Septerra Core, Might & Magic, Fallout, Elder Scrolls and Ultima. Those were the big ones, and check out their sequels. IMO, their sequals are far more ambitious and revolutionary than the big JRPG IP sequals.

Again, I LOVE the run-of-the-mill JRPG (I own probably 80% of the SNES JRPGs that were made in the US). But it seems like from Morrowind to Oblivion, just as much or more changed than DQ3 to DQ8.