By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - If You Could Ask God ONE QUESTION

WessleWoggle said:
tombi123 said:
appolose said:
tombi123 said:

True. I should have put 'seems to have no cause'. Although because of the absence of evidence, the logical view is always the skeptical view, ie, it has (seems to have) no cause. Much like the the existence of God. There is no evidence for the existence of God therefore he (probably) doesn't exist, until you can provide evidence for his existence.

 

 

 This is untrue; assuming nonexistence is no more logical than assuming existence, even if we were to think that probability lends anything to logic (you don't have to assume anything, so it's not a logical necessity to assume anything).  Furthermore, it's not more probable that God does not exist than he does exist if we're saying there is proof for neither.  Because if there isn't, how could we say one is more likely than the other?  Skepticism is not a necessary assumption.

So do you think Middle Earth has an equal likelihood of existing then it does at not existing? How about Father Christmas? The Tooth Fairy? Harry Potter? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? There is no evidence that these exist, they were made up by humans.

 

It's illogical to believe god exists, it's illogial to think god doesn't exist.

But for all real life purposes it's not illogical to assume god doesn't exist because thinking god exists helps in no way.

 

From a scientific stand point it is not illogical to believe God doesn't exist. 

Do you believe its illogical to think pink unicorns or flying pigs don't exist?

 



Around the Network
tombi123 said:
appolose said:
tombi123 said:

True. I should have put 'seems to have no cause'. Although because of the absence of evidence, the logical view is always the skeptical view, ie, it has (seems to have) no cause. Much like the the existence of God. There is no evidence for the existence of God therefore he (probably) doesn't exist, until you can provide evidence for his existence.

 

 

 This is untrue; assuming nonexistence is no more logical than assuming existence, even if we were to think that probability lends anything to logic (you don't have to assume anything, so it's not a logical necessity to assume anything).  Furthermore, it's not more probable that God does not exist than he does exist if we're saying there is proof for neither.  Because if there isn't, how could we say one is more likely than the other?  Skepticism is not a necessary assumption.

So do you think Middle Earth has an equal likelihood of existing then it does at not existing? How about Father Christmas? The Tooth Fairy? Harry Potter? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? There is no evidence that these exist, they were made up by humans.

 

 Are you implying that absurdity is a proof against existence?  Because, if you are, then you would have a reason to disbelieve it, as then the evidence would tip in favor of nonexistence.  But if absurdity is not (which it isn't), in and of itself, proof against, then there is no reason to assume something doesn't exist.  And, when you get right down to it, saying this computer I'm typing on exists is no less absurd than saying the flying spaghetti monster does.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
The last time I tried to apply logic in an argument concerning philosophy on here, I was informed it doesn't apply to real life :p

But I'll try again, regarding the rock-God question: What it's asking is essentially "Can God do something he can't do"?
The question is actually implying incoherent propositions, so it's meaningless in the first place. In hypothetically stating the existence of God in the beginning, the question inevitably accepts the definition of said hypothetical God as all powerful (indeed, a lifter of all rocks). Then the question introduces the term "a rock God can't lift". Well... that already contradicts the hypothetical scenario we set up.
It's certainly tricky to recognize as it seems to emphasize the ability to do an action (create) rather than emphasizing the contradictory predicate (the rock God can't lift).
Thus as a contradictory question it may be called false or meaningless. I think we could recognize many false questions more easily than this. E.g. "How many miles are in a square"?
If you don't accept any of what I just said, the question is a trite misrepresentation of omnipotence if anything else.

You may actually be the one with your head out of the clouds on this one.  It seems to me that your addition looks at the difference between the literal possibilities that we know of versus the theoretical possibilities.  Showing that while we can swirl ideas around in our heads which make perfect sense in the path we have chosen for our deduction, they may not necessarily reflect what is plausible in practice.  However, I still believe that in God being all powerful in that He made all of the rules of this existence, that He would even transcend what we commonly accept as practical based on the reference point that we have to work with, our existence and our established thought patterns.  If we were to expand logic closer to it's outer reaches, then I think it is actually possible for God to, in your phrasing, "do something He cannot do."  But perhaps not within the literal bounds of this existence.




WessleWoggle said:
tombi123 said:
WessleWoggle said:
tombi123 said:
appolose said:

 

 

 

 

It's illogical to believe god exists, it's illogial to think god doesn't exist.

But for all real life purposes it's not illogical to assume god doesn't exist because thinking god exists helps in no way.

 

From a scientific stand point it is not illogical to believe God doesn't exist.

Do you believe its illogical to think pink unicorns or flying pigs don't exist?

 

But many people think god is unknowable, by that given definition it's illogical to believe he doesn't exist, but that has more to do with philosophy and not science, and you did say scientific.

Yes, it's logical to think pink unicorns don't exist. You've never seen one, and unicorns are mythical creations of man. If they're a invisible pink unicorn though, it is illogical to believe they don't exist. You can't see them not existing.

Flying pigs... Ever seen a cop in a helicopter? How about a pig shot out of a cannon?

 

 

Lots of good stuff.  Here, as well, there is again an implication that logic is a relative term to the circumstance with which we confine it and in turn is limited to our current knowledge and since we are subject to psychology, we can also say our current "accepted" knowledge.  If logic wasn't a relative term here, then you would have to coin that it is "scientific" that pink unicorns don't exist, but then you are saying that science isn't logical, in which case it would potentially be an inferior process as it would not be considering all possibilities, which could house a correct possibility not considered.  Just thought I would bring that tidbit out for my past posts, but all your points are well made.

 




mmnin said:
appolose said:
The last time I tried to apply logic in an argument concerning philosophy on here, I was informed it doesn't apply to real life :p

But I'll try again, regarding the rock-God question: What it's asking is essentially "Can God do something he can't do"?
The question is actually implying incoherent propositions, so it's meaningless in the first place. In hypothetically stating the existence of God in the beginning, the question inevitably accepts the definition of said hypothetical God as all powerful (indeed, a lifter of all rocks). Then the question introduces the term "a rock God can't lift". Well... that already contradicts the hypothetical scenario we set up.
It's certainly tricky to recognize as it seems to emphasize the ability to do an action (create) rather than emphasizing the contradictory predicate (the rock God can't lift).
Thus as a contradictory question it may be called false or meaningless. I think we could recognize many false questions more easily than this. E.g. "How many miles are in a square"?
If you don't accept any of what I just said, the question is a trite misrepresentation of omnipotence if anything else.

You may actually be the one with your head out of the clouds on this one.  It seems to me that your addition looks at the difference between the literal possibilities that we know of versus the theoretical possibilities.  Showing that while we can swirl ideas around in our heads which make perfect sense in the path we have chosen for our deduction, they may not necessarily reflect what is plausible in practice.  However, I still believe that in God being all powerful in that He made all of the rules of this existence, that He would even transcend what we commonly accept as practical based on the reference point that we have to work with, our existence and our established thought patterns.  If we were to expand logic closer to it's outer reaches, then I think it is actually possible for God to, in your phrasing, "do something He cannot do."  But perhaps not within the literal bounds of this existence.

While I must (respectfully) disagree, in that I find logic to be unchanging at any level, and that God is "bound" by logic (although that isn't the apt description), we can both agree that the rock question isn't a problem, eh? :)

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
Around the Network
appolose said:
mmnin said:
appolose said:
The last time I tried to apply logic in an argument concerning philosophy on here, I was informed it doesn't apply to real life :p

But I'll try again, regarding the rock-God question: What it's asking is essentially "Can God do something he can't do"?
The question is actually implying incoherent propositions, so it's meaningless in the first place. In hypothetically stating the existence of God in the beginning, the question inevitably accepts the definition of said hypothetical God as all powerful (indeed, a lifter of all rocks). Then the question introduces the term "a rock God can't lift". Well... that already contradicts the hypothetical scenario we set up.
It's certainly tricky to recognize as it seems to emphasize the ability to do an action (create) rather than emphasizing the contradictory predicate (the rock God can't lift).
Thus as a contradictory question it may be called false or meaningless. I think we could recognize many false questions more easily than this. E.g. "How many miles are in a square"?
If you don't accept any of what I just said, the question is a trite misrepresentation of omnipotence if anything else.

You may actually be the one with your head out of the clouds on this one.  It seems to me that your addition looks at the difference between the literal possibilities that we know of versus the theoretical possibilities.  Showing that while we can swirl ideas around in our heads which make perfect sense in the path we have chosen for our deduction, they may not necessarily reflect what is plausible in practice.  However, I still believe that in God being all powerful in that He made all of the rules of this existence, that He would even transcend what we commonly accept as practical based on the reference point that we have to work with, our existence and our established thought patterns.  If we were to expand logic closer to it's outer reaches, then I think it is actually possible for God to, in your phrasing, "do something He cannot do."  But perhaps not within the literal bounds of this existence.

While I must (respectfully) disagree, in that I find logic to be unchanging at any level, and that God is "bound" by logic (although that isn't the apt description), we can both agree that the rock question isn't a problem, eh? :)

 

Ah well there in lies a question of how we define God.  The initial assumption that God is all powerful would seem to imply that He transcends all we know.  Which brings us to how we define all powerful.  If you simply define all powerful as what can be within the confines of our known existence, then you are not considering the possibility that He created all that we know to exist.  In which case, He would thus transcend all that we know.  If you are saying that God is "bound" by logic then He cannot be all powerful in the fullest extent of the concept. 

My argument and explored idea is that He has actually made logic as we know it, and that undiscovered qualities of our existence may actually be far beyond our current levels of thinking and logic.  So much so that our currently accepted logic does not apply.  Which brings me to my prior posts about logic being a relative term and since possible scenarios for which to create and apply logic are also limitless technically logic, in this case, would be boundless, and thus if God is "bound" by logic, then in this case, He would be boundless and again the fullest extent of the concept "All Powerful."  I believe it is also possible that God IS theoretical embodiment of the truest form of logic which also fits into some beliefs that God is omnipresent and would also imply that He has been forever changing, but in that He has always been and is forever changing for all possible changes, then He has actually been forever the same.

 




Why are there so many shitty people?



mmnin said:
appolose said:

While I must (respectfully) disagree, in that I find logic to be unchanging at any level, and that God is "bound" by logic (although that isn't the apt description), we can both agree that the rock question isn't a problem, eh? :)

 

Ah well there in lies a question of how we define God.  The initial assumption that God is all powerful would seem to imply that He transcends all we know.  Which brings us to how we define all powerful.  If you simply define all powerful as what can be within the confines of our known existence, then you are not considering the possibility that He created all that we know to exist.  In which case, He would thus transcend all that we know.  If you are saying that God is "bound" by logic then He cannot be all powerful in the fullest extent of the concept. 

My argument and explored idea is that He has actually made logic as we know it, and that undiscovered qualities of our existence may actually be far beyond our current levels of thinking and logic.  So much so that our currently accepted logic does not apply.  Which brings me to my prior posts about logic being a relative terms and is technically without bound, and thus if God is "bound" by logic, then in this case, He would be boundless and again the fullest extent of the concept "All Powerful."  I believe it is also possible that God IS theoretical embodiment of the truest form of logic which also fits into some beliefs that God is omnipresent and would also imply that He has been forever changing, but in that He has always been and is forever changing for all possible changes, then He has actually been forever the same.

 

I hesitated to use bound, for I do not think that correct.  And I can agree with you that God might embody logic.  But it is with that that I find God "unable" to do absurd or meaningless things, in that a meaningless "thing" cannot be done because it does not exist.  To say God cannot do what isn't is limiting; it's definitive, as the alternative says nothing (and thus is not limiting).  Also, I think it false to say that there is "our logic" and then there is "God's logic".  There is no such distinction, for logic is simply non-contradiction.  One might say that we don't always use logic correctly or get it wrong occasionally, but that does not imply there is a different logic to be had.  Furthermore, the argument "God does not have our logic.  This action a contradiction.  Therefore, God can do this action" is using "our" logic again to prove our logic isn't the highest form of logic, and thus defeats itself (which is logical).

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
WessleWoggle said:
mmnin said:
WessleWoggle said:
tombi123 said:
WessleWoggle said:
tombi123 said:

 

 

 

 

But many people think god is unknowable, by that given definition it's illogical to believe he doesn't exist, but that has more to do with philosophy and not science, and you did say scientific.

Yes, it's logical to think pink unicorns don't exist. You've never seen one, and unicorns are mythical creations of man. If they're a invisible pink unicorn though, it is illogical to believe they don't exist. You can't see them not existing.

Flying pigs... Ever seen a cop in a helicopter? How about a pig shot out of a cannon?

 

 

Lots of good stuff.  Here, as well, there is again an implication that logic is a relative term to the circumstance with which we confine it and in turn is limited to our current knowledge and since we are subject to psychology, we can also say our current "accepted" knowledge.  If logic wasn't a relative term here, then you would have to coin that it is "scientific" that pink unicorns don't exist, but then you are saying that science isn't logical, in which case it would potentially be an inferior process as it would not be considering all possibilities, which could house a correct possibility not considered.  Just thought I would bring that tidbit out for my past posts, but all your points are well made.

 

 But possibilites don't need to be considered in the science world if they're bullshit. In philosophy though, there is reason to consider them, to think about them for the hell of it. Scientists don't need to study to see if there's a giant teapot orbiting mars, but philosophers can ponder the idea. To science it's bullshit unproven crap. In philosophy it can be something to ponder.

Sciences way of logic may be inferior to something else, but you know what, we'd have to use the scientific process to see if the new method was better. :P

Science logic:

1. A man claims X is true

2. No proof for X is found

3. Therefore X is unproven at the moment

Philosophy logic

1. A man claims X is true

2. A man thinks up some philosophical bullshit

3. Therefore X is not proven or disproven.

 

All science is based upon the world in the scenario as we know it to be and through the limited senses that we have to percieve with.  We created all the core structures that we use to determine whether something is scientifically sound or not.  And while they may coexist with our observations in enough cases that we do not completely discredit them, the possibility that there are more accurate methods which reference the world in its entirety as opposed to simply how we percieve it is always present.  They get us by, but they may not be perfect.  To state that they are perfect would be to imply that you know as truth that there is no other possibilities, which cannot be as we may not have observed what is necessary to know that.  So while we break new ground and discover new useful information and processes, we are doing so at the risk of being wrong.

Science in many ways is about function, not truth.  Like walking.  It may not be the best form of travel if we were to know every invention that could ever be created and every principle that could ever be discovered, but it works, we know that, and so we use it.

 




appolose said:
mmnin said:
appolose said:

While I must (respectfully) disagree, in that I find logic to be unchanging at any level, and that God is "bound" by logic (although that isn't the apt description), we can both agree that the rock question isn't a problem, eh? :)

 

Ah well there in lies a question of how we define God.  The initial assumption that God is all powerful would seem to imply that He transcends all we know.  Which brings us to how we define all powerful.  If you simply define all powerful as what can be within the confines of our known existence, then you are not considering the possibility that He created all that we know to exist.  In which case, He would thus transcend all that we know.  If you are saying that God is "bound" by logic then He cannot be all powerful in the fullest extent of the concept. 

My argument and explored idea is that He has actually made logic as we know it, and that undiscovered qualities of our existence may actually be far beyond our current levels of thinking and logic.  So much so that our currently accepted logic does not apply.  Which brings me to my prior posts about logic being a relative terms and is technically without bound, and thus if God is "bound" by logic, then in this case, He would be boundless and again the fullest extent of the concept "All Powerful."  I believe it is also possible that God IS theoretical embodiment of the truest form of logic which also fits into some beliefs that God is omnipresent and would also imply that He has been forever changing, but in that He has always been and is forever changing for all possible changes, then He has actually been forever the same.

 

I hesitated to use bound, for I do not think that correct.  And I can agree with you that God might embody logic.  But it is with that that I find God "unable" to do absurd or meaningless things, in that a meaningless "thing" cannot be done because it does not exist.  To say God cannot do what isn't is limiting; it's definitive, as the alternative says nothing (and thus is not limiting).  Also, I think it false to say that there is "our logic" and then there is "God's logic".  There is no such distinction, for logic is simply non-contradiction.  One might say that we don't always use logic correctly or get it wrong occasionally, but that does not imply there is a different logic to be had.  Furthermore, the argument "God does not have our logic.  This action a contradiction.  Therefore, God can do this action" is using "our" logic again to prove our logic isn't the highest form of logic, and thus defeats itself (which is logical).

 

Actually I've been saying that "logic" or truth is possibly relative to the environment in which it is applied, and if it is relative, then there are an infinite many number of subsets to which can be in the overall set of logic.  I am saying that while our logic may be a subset of the overall set of logic, with God possibly being the whole set of logic, our subset would not equate the set since there are many logical environments that exist that we do not know about.

Oh and guys, I really appreciate you allowing me to explore thoughts like this.  I'm enjoying these discussions.  Not sure when my mind is going to give out though.  lol.  The mind has been shown to take up the most energy of any other body part.