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Forums - Sales Discussion - Poll: Who will win the Console Wars?

Since we're back on the topic of third party developers ...

There seems to be this belief that third party developers will continue to focus on the PS3 and XBox 360 inspite of the far better sales of the Wii; this argumet seems to be based on the assumption that third parties can not compete on Nintendo systems and that most developers will focus on the most powerful hardware. The same argument was made when the Nintendo DS started to see dramatically higher sales than the PSP because (in most ways) the DS is positioned in the market in a simlar way to the Wii, and the PSP is position in the market in a similar way to the PS3 and XBox 360. The upcomming game release totals (until the end of 2007) for these systems are:

 

PSP:
North America: 65 titles
Japan: 20 titles
UK: 60 titles

Nintendo DS:
US: 180+ titles
Japan: 50+ titles
UK: 100+ titles



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HappySqurriel said:

The first party line-up arguments are highly subjective ... In 7+ with the PS2 years Sony was able to produce a similar number of high quality games that had similar sales numbers to what Nintendo was able to do in 5 on the Gamecube; some people are likely to prefer Nintendo's first party developers over Sony's first party developers but that doesn't mean that any company is dramatically better.

 

I agree with you that it's subjective. I like Nintendo's games as well. I have played through most Mario and some of the Zelda games.  Those were really good games  and good games always attract me regardless of the platform. Still games like God of War, Twisted Metal, Shadow of Colossus, Ratchet & Clank, GT etc. just appeals to me more. And I think two previous generations have proved, that there are lot's of people who feel so too.

What comes to those software sales numbers... I believe it's due to piracy that some of the AAA games has not sold more on PS2. The piracy of PS1 and PS2 games was/is in a way different class than the N64 and GC. Same goes to PSP vs DS. But it's two-sided thing, because I believe that PlayStation brand wouldn't have sold as much hardware if the consoles would have been impossible to mod / pirate. 



1) Okay, to sum it up: You think that the myth is somewhat true, I think 3rd party games in general didn't sell well because most of them lacked quality and a few of them were inferior ports compared to the PS2/Xbox versions.

Inferior? Most Gamecube gamers feel that multi-plats play better on the Gamcube. With it's very good controler, fast load times and amazing graphics, I'm forced to put myself in that category. RE4 and Madden are good examples. Both play better on the Gamecube then other consoles.

2) For example the only game last generation that really tried to compete with Zelda and did a good job at it, was Okami on the PS2 (and it bombed on a system with a 100+m userbase). But who is going to say that 3rd parties have to compete directly with Nintendo's games? Why didn't 3rd parties try to fill the gaps in the lineup (racing sims, FPS, sandbox among others)? And don't tell me because such games can't sell well on Nintendo platforms, most of these genres didn't even have a polished game on the GC. So how should 3rd parties know for sure that these games don't sell well?

Okami came out to late in the PS2's life. I really don't have any stats to prove this, it's just a personal opinion. You just said yourself that Nintendo fans expect 3rd party games to be of the same quality as Nintendo games, which means it as to compete with Nintendo's games to sell well. I really don't see 3rd parties trying to make a solid FPS on the wii. Not with Metroid, a game thats considered the best FPS in all of gaming, is ready to make it's launch. What would be the point in trying to fill the gap in the line up when there's money to made on other consoles?

3) http://vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&console=SNES&publisher=&sort=Total

34 out of 51 million sellers are 3rd party games.

http://vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&console=GBA&publisher=&sort=Total

29 out of 53 million sellers are 3rd party games.

This should show that 3rd party games can be successful on Nintendo platforms as well. Of course Nintendo will always have a decent chunk of million selling games themselves.

Actually, I feel your numbers help reinforce my point. Even with user bases over twice as large as the Xbox's the SNES barely beats it, and the GBA doesn't even match the number of millon sellers for 3rd parties. The SNES had 34 3rd party millon sellers, the GBA had 29. The SNES sold 49m consoles, and the GBA sold 80m. Compare that to Xbox's 32 3rd party millon sellers and you will see what I mean. 3rd parties may favor other consoles like the Xbox 360 or PS3 mainly because: Microsoft is willing to help with development cost; the software sales and attach rates are very high; past relationships and success with Sony, these are all things that you have to take into consideration when talking about Nintendo and their 3rd party support. Every thing isn't always about who outsells who.

4) Yup.

I really don't get why people consider a console a failer or not based on what another company does. A consoles success should be judged on what a console does on it's own merits. You can't call the Gamecube a failure because it didn't sell 120m units and become the greatest selling console ever.

5) Then you better had replaced "everyone" with "gamers" or made that clear the first time you answered to me. That way it wouldn't have led to my initial question.

I see no point in doing that. To be honest, I remeber alot of 3rd parties being exited about the Wiimote.



Madden on Gamecube was actually the worst of the three consoles versions. The first few editions of Madden on GC lacked some of the stat tracking features due to the smaller memory cards on GC. 0.5MB compared to 8MB on PS2 and X-box. Even after that was remedied when Nintendo finally got around to releasing larger memory cards Madden still lacked on-line play.



So, with all the "advanced technology" i.e. Cell, Xenon, BD, why does Wii not have noticeable load times whereas that's all you notice on the other two?



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1) For example Splinter Cell and Need for Speed games were inferior ports. I can't say anything about Madden, haven't played it on any console last gen, I am not into sports games. Resident Evil 4 wasn't a port, it was build up from the ground for the GC, was a high quality game and became a million seller which supports my point that good 3rd party games do well on Nintendo systems.

But how many multi-plat were just ports overall for Gamcube? From what I understand just some it's early life time games can be considered inferior ports. Once the Gamcube got going you could see a clear difference in their games when compared to the PS2. Sonic heroes is a good example of this. For the gamecube the game had better frame rate, bettter graphics, and faster loading time. Madden also ran smoother, had better graphics, and faster load times as well. Plus the Gamecube has what many believe to be the best controler last gen. The only time the Gamecubes games were inferior was during it's launch maybe? I really don't remmeber games player worse on the Gamecube at all.

2) MP3 isn't a mainstream FPS (it wasn't even a FPS back then on the GC) and it has no (online) multiplayer. There is plenty of room for 3rd parties to make FPS games that appeal to people who don't like the Metroid setting. 3rd parties have to prove that they can make the controls work as well as those of MP3 though (which is again my argument that Nintendo gamers expect effort from 3rd party games as well). Competition in quality doesn't equal to competition in the same genre, Nintendo doesn't make traditional FPS, racing sims or sandbox games for example.

What would be the reason for 3rd parties to make a FPS on a Nintendo system when they can make it on the 360? This is the type of thing I'm talking about. With the succuess of FPS on the 360 and with it's amazing attach rate, why should 3rd parties break their necks to get a game out when there's money to be made on other consoles? 3rd parties need to do alot to get a game to sell on a Nintendo system. Alot more then they do to sell on any other console. Your mindset along with most other nintendo fans is "prove this prove that", and it's exactly why 3rd parties don't as well on nintendo consoles. It isn't needed when there's money to be made on other consoles. The same and maybe even more money could be made on the 360 PS3 combo.

There's also a lot of money to be made on the Wii. Highest installed base, lowest development costs and healthy attach rate can't be ignored by any sane 3rd party publisher and that's exactly why nearly all of them have already stated they will make more Wii games from now on.

I agree, and thats why it won't be ignored. Also, I not falling for these "3rd parties rushing to Wii" rumors. I want to see it happen first. I want to see 3rd parties take their big frachises off other consoles and put them Wii before I take this seriously. For all I know, they could be making crap ports or just more mini games trying to cash in quick. I really have a hard time believing things on the internet because it often just bullshit. (Metal Gear on 360, for example)

3) The higher the userbase the more likely it is to sell more games.

The DS million seller list is heavily dominated by Nintendo titles (only 6 out of 29 games are 3rd party): 

http://vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&console=DS&publisher=&sort=Total

The PSP million seller list is dominated by 3rd party games (9 out of 11):

http://vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&console=PSP&publisher=&sort=Total

So this is clearly evidence that the PSP is the better option for 3rd parties, right? I just paste HappySqurriel's list of upcoming games for DS and PSP for the rest of 2007:

I think that both the PSP are good options for 3rd parties. (I actually think the same about the PS3/Wii/360) Those numbers suprise me a bit. I thought the PSP had 16 millon sellers with 13 being from 3 parties. I also thought that the DS would have more then 29m sellers. Both the DS and PSP have flaws when talking about 3rd party software sells. PSP's software sales are so low that even with 3rd parties lack of millons sellers on the DS, there really isn't any advantage for developing PSP games over DS games. Not with the PSP high development costs... With the difference being as small as 3 I see no reason that the PSP would be a better option for 3rd parties.

Apparently 3rd party publishers think there's more money to be made on the DS than on the PSP. Similarly, 3rd parties are cutting back on development for 360/PS3 titles to have more resources for Wii games (even though the Wii is also dominated by 1st party games).

Thats because there is more money to made on the DS. It's not like 3rd party sales for the PSP are off the charts or anything. The DS, judging by your numbers, is doing just as good as the PSP with 3rd parties. Add that with lower development cost of the DS and you see why there's more money to be made on the DS. I mean, if you're getting the same results but the other is cheaper, of course there will be more money to be made on the DS. I also would like to see the 360 and PS3 lose all their 3rd part support before I believe it.

4) In my opinion the simplest way to judge a console's success is to compare what it has done to the expectations its company had. The Gamecube clearly underachieved marketshare wise, in that regards it is a failure. It had a lot of great games and it was profitable but it couldn't fulfill Nintendo's own expectations.

Market share isn't the only way to judge a console. If I remember right Nintendo wanted to sale 50m Gamecubes. Even if they did this their market share would not have been high.

5) If 3rd parties were so excited about the Wiimote (after all it was shown in September 2005) then why were (and still are) there so few 3rd party quality games on the Wii?

Same reason why there's so few 3rd party games for the PS3. It just came out.

 

Seriouly though, good post. I had to do some thiking reply right, lol.

 



Nintendo Wii.



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Who will win the Console Wars?

Nintendo shareholders.



"There are three types of lies : Lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli ( Made famous by Mark Twain )

PSN ID: DeviantPathways

Wii Number: 0081 3044 1559 2355

 

Sqrl said:
WiteoutKing said:
senatorpjt: I uh... play my Wii on an HDTV. Having HD had/has no impact on my choice in console purchase.

I too play my wii on an HDTV, but HD has had an impact on my console consideration. I would not even consider getting a PS3/360 if I didn't have an HDTV. As it stands I am still unsure which I am going to get but I know for sure I would want the HDTV before the HD console.


I as well play my Wii on an HDTV.  I intend to get a 360 but the HDTV hardly stopped me from purchasing a Wii.



I thought it was decided that the "Console Wars" were marketing propaganda.