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Should atheists be banned from VGChartz?

Yes 20 15.50%
 
Yes 3 2.33%
 
Yes 3 2.33%
 
Yes 0 0%
 
Yes 2 1.55%
 
Yes 0 0%
 
Hail Satan! 94 72.87%
 
Yes 3 2.33%
 
Yes 1 0.78%
 
Yes 3 2.33%
 
Total:129
WolfpackN64 said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Dunno if this is a joke post or not, but assuming it's not.... every one of your points is flawed. Right at the beginning you say there needs to be an origin.... yet don't actually provide that origin. Since the thing you say is the origin of the universe would also need an origin, so you've contradicted yourself.

Not a joke, I'll refer you to point number 3 to awnser your question.

Point 3 contradicts god, as god could not have been created from nothing.



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Peh said:
WolfpackN64 said:

1. The existance of God can be attested in the concept of change. There must be an origin for all change. This prime mover is God.

2. Change always occurs in series of origin-causation. But there must be a first origin of this change, otherwise the series of causation and effect wouldn't be able to take place. Referring to number 1, this prime mover is God.

3. Things appear and dissapear in this world. Yet not everything can be this way, since there can not be a period when there was nothing, since something can't appear from nothing. Thus, there must be something that has always existed, being, God.

4. Some things occur with differing qualities. These differing qualities (in similar objects, beings) must come forth from something that has, ideally, the perfect amount of qualities. There must be something perfectly good, that causes other things to be good: God.

5. Everything strives towards an (ultimate) goal. The fact of having goals implies a spirit who poses the goals, that spirit is God.

I hope you find this awnser serious and satisfactory.

1. God of gaps argument. 

2. God of gaps argument.

3. Argument from ignorance -> God of gaps argument.

4. God of gaps argument

5. God of gaps argument

That was easy. 

Except this is not applicable in this case since it's an abstract argument. If you knew from which philosopher this came, you would certainly not use a God of gaps argument since to him, gaining knowledge is not moving away from God, but coming closer to him.



Ka-pi96 said:
WolfpackN64 said:

Not a joke, I'll refer you to point number 3 to awnser your question.

That doesn't answer the question though. That's the exact same thing. Either A. things can come from nothing, in which case your point is proven wrong. Or B. there is something that has always existed, but you've got no evidence whatsoever to suggest the thing that has always existed is your thing instead of either the universe, or the atoms/particles that make up the universe.

There is absolutely no empirical evidence to suggest things can come from nothing. That's not even possible from the laws of physics. So there must always have been something. My point stands.



Pemalite said:
WolfpackN64 said:

1. The existance of God can be attested in the concept of change. There must be an origin for all change. This prime mover is God.

2. Change always occurs in series of origin-causation. But there must be a first origin of this change, otherwise the series of causation and effect wouldn't be able to take place. Referring to number 1, this prime mover is God.

3. Things appear and dissapear in this world. Yet not everything can be this way, since there can not be a period when there was nothing, since something can't appear from nothing. Thus, there must be something that has always existed, being, God.

4. Some things occur with differing qualities. These differing qualities (in similar objects, beings) must come forth from something that has, ideally, the perfect amount of qualities. There must be something perfectly good, that causes other things to be good: God.

5. Everything strives towards an (ultimate) goal. The fact of having goals implies a spirit who poses the goals, that spirit is God.

I hope you find this awnser serious and satisfactory.

That is just nonsensical, babble.

It's not a satisfactory or serious answer. I do believe you are tolling if you can't make a proper coherant reply though. But I'll give you the benefit of a doubt.

By the way. Do you have evidence that something cannot appear from nothing? Because I have evidence on the contrary.

It's just not possible from a physics standpoint, so it's also not possible from a theological standpoint. I implore you to observe my above points more carefully. They're not mine, but they stem from one of the greatest philosophers to have ever lived, it's not babble if you open your eyes to it.



Ka-pi96 said:
WolfpackN64 said:

There is absolutely no empirical evidence to suggest things can come from nothing. That's not even possible from the laws of physics. So there must always have been something. My point stands.

Somebody will probably come up with some kind of nuclear thing or whatever for that first point, but I don't know (nor care) about that kind of stuff.

But regardless, answer the 2nd part of option B then. If there must have always been something why exactly is your deity a more likely thing to have always existed than the atoms/particles that make up the universe?

We're not even certain in which form matter or particles existed before the Big Bang, but I'm not going there since that would be a gap argument. How could God not have been at the cradle as the prime originator. There's nothing to suggest this is an impossability.



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WolfpackN64 said:
Peh said:

1. God of gaps argument. 

2. God of gaps argument.

3. Argument from ignorance -> God of gaps argument.

4. God of gaps argument

5. God of gaps argument

That was easy. 

Except this is not applicable in this case since it's an abstract argument. If you knew from which philosopher this came, you would certainly not use a God of gaps argument since to him, gaining knowledge is not moving away from God, but coming closer to him.

Whatever the argument. If it's premise is falacious, the conclusion can be, too. Even Newton was wrong on many occasions. But go on, tell me the philosopher and I will conclude the same. I don't care about who he is. I judge all equally. 



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Eagle367 said:
Pemalite said:
Call me when someone has empirical evidence for God, Satan, Heaven, Hell. Etc'. - Otherwise I'll continue to laugh at such tripe.

Call me when there's empirical evidence to the contrary. Otherwise I'll continue to laugh at such tripe

Yesterday, you made sweet love to Jaleel White.  You asked him to pour hot sauce on a gerbil, and put it into your anus.

Call me when you can present empirical evidence to the contrary.  Otherwise, I'll continue to believe it.

WolfpackN64 said:
Pemalite said:

The Burden of proof doesn't work that way.

Otherwise I could claim that I own a pet dragon.
And you would have to believe me unless you have evidence that proves that I don't. Which would be impossible.

Ergo... It makes the entire thing stupid.

1. The existance of God can be attested in the concept of change. There must be an origin for all change. This prime mover is God.

2. Change always occurs in series of origin-causation. But there must be a first origin of this change, otherwise the series of causation and effect wouldn't be able to take place. Referring to number 1, this prime mover is God.

3. Things appear and dissapear in this world. Yet not everything can be this way, since there can not be a period when there was nothing, since something can't appear from nothing. Thus, there must be something that has always existed, being, God.

4. Some things occur with differing qualities. These differing qualities (in similar objects, beings) must come forth from something that has, ideally, the perfect amount of qualities. There must be something perfectly good, that causes other things to be good: God.

5. Everything strives towards an (ultimate) goal. The fact of having goals implies a spirit who poses the goals, that spirit is God.

I hope you find this awnser serious and satisfactory.

1.  This is basically a weird version of the Kalam, but there is no demonstration for that premise.  I'm guessing they changed (or you if you developed this) cause to change so they can avoid special pleading by claiming god is changeless.  But, if you're talking about the Christian god that does not work because that one does change, in the old testament and the new.

There also is no reason to suggest there is an origin for change.  If we have a dimension of time, that's pretty much enough on its own.

Even though if I were to grant everything you said though, and there was a prime mover, first cause, or whatever, that does not get to god.  There's no way to ascribe characteristics to whatever this thing is.  

2.  So then, this is pretty much a straight up Kalam.  And this is an example of special pleading that directly contradicts itself.  If everything needs a cause, god needs one too.  

3.  Appear and disappear are terms that apply to the human eye.  So, because my eye can no longer perceive something, doesn't mean it's not there.  I assume that what you meant is more along the lines of things come into existence and leave existence, but that's absolutely not true.  In fact, to the best of our knowledge, the opposite is the case.  The laws of conservation of energy and conservation of mass indicate that neither energy or mass can be created or destroyed. Things don't pop in and out of existence.  Just change form.

4.  Ummm, I think that's the ontological?  A weird phrasing of it that doesn't make sense, or I should say makes less sense then the typical phrasing off the ontological argument.

Suppose I have a rock.  I can fashion that rock into a cube.  The cube has a perfect quality of cubiness, but it came from something that has no quality of cubiness. 

If I take two hydrogen molecules and an oxygen molecule, the resulting combination is something that has properties (wetness, thirst quenchigness, can put out fire), that neither of the things it came from had.  So, things with certain qualities do not have to come from other things with lesser amounts of that quality.

Beyond that, though, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Are you saying god possesses the maximmum amount of every quality?  Is he spicy?  Chocolatey?  Sweet?  Brave?  Cowardly?  Papery?  Pointy?  Smooth?  Heavy?  Light?  Flippant?  Serious?  Green?  Blue?  Smoky?  Smelly?  Cheesy?  Salty?

By this argument, if every quality has to come from something with a perfect form of that quality, god would have to possess all of those traits which would be logically impossible.  Otherwise, those traits exist without a god, and there's no reason other traits can not.

5.  That's just a completely unfounded premise.  Can you demonstrate that everything has a goal?  As far as I can tell, only living things do, which is a very small subset of everything.

If everything has a goal, why would that imply a spirit?  



Peh said:
WolfpackN64 said:

Except this is not applicable in this case since it's an abstract argument. If you knew from which philosopher this came, you would certainly not use a God of gaps argument since to him, gaining knowledge is not moving away from God, but coming closer to him.

Whatever the argument. If it's premise is falacious, the conclusion can be, too. Even Newton was wrong on many occasions. But go on, tell me the philosopher and I will conclude the same. I don't care about who he is. I judge all equally. 

It's Thomas Aquinas if you're curious.



JWeinCom said:
Eagle367 said:

Call me when there's empirical evidence to the contrary. Otherwise I'll continue to laugh at such tripe

Yesterday, you made sweet love to Jaleel White.  You asked him to pour hot sauce on a gerbil, and put it into your anus.

Call me when you can present empirical evidence to the contrary.  Otherwise, I'll continue to believe it.

WolfpackN64 said:

1. The existance of God can be attested in the concept of change. There must be an origin for all change. This prime mover is God.

2. Change always occurs in series of origin-causation. But there must be a first origin of this change, otherwise the series of causation and effect wouldn't be able to take place. Referring to number 1, this prime mover is God.

3. Things appear and dissapear in this world. Yet not everything can be this way, since there can not be a period when there was nothing, since something can't appear from nothing. Thus, there must be something that has always existed, being, God.

4. Some things occur with differing qualities. These differing qualities (in similar objects, beings) must come forth from something that has, ideally, the perfect amount of qualities. There must be something perfectly good, that causes other things to be good: God.

5. Everything strives towards an (ultimate) goal. The fact of having goals implies a spirit who poses the goals, that spirit is God.

I hope you find this awnser serious and satisfactory.

1.  This is basically a weird version of the Kalam, but there is no demonstration for that premise.  I'm guessing they changed (or you if you developed this) cause to change so they can avoid special pleading by claiming god is changeless.  But, if you're talking about the Christian god that does not work because that one does change, in the old testament and the new.

There also is no reason to suggest there is an origin for change.  If we have a dimension of time, that's pretty much enough on its own.

Even though if I were to grant everything you said though, and there was a prime mover, first cause, or whatever, that does not get to god.  There's no way to ascribe characteristics to whatever this thing is.  

2.  So then, this is pretty much a straight up Kalam.  And this is an example of special pleading that directly contradicts itself.  If everything needs a cause, god needs one too.  

3.  Appear and disappear are terms that apply to the human eye.  So, because my eye can no longer perceive something, doesn't mean it's not there.  I assume that what you meant is more along the lines of things come into existence and leave existence, but that's absolutely not true.  In fact, to the best of our knowledge, the opposite is the case.  The laws of conservation of energy and conservation of mass indicate that neither energy or mass can be created or destroyed. Things don't pop in and out of existence.  Just change form.

4.  Ummm, I think that's the ontological?  A weird phrasing of it that doesn't make sense, or I should say makes less sense then the typical phrasing off the ontological argument.

Suppose I have a rock.  I can fashion that rock into a cube.  The cube has a perfect quality of cubiness, but it came from something that has no quality of cubiness. 

If I take two hydrogen molecules and an oxygen molecule, the resulting combination is something that has properties (wetness, thirst quenchigness, can put out fire), that neither of the things it came from had.  So, things with certain qualities do not have to come from other things with lesser amounts of that quality.

Beyond that, though, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  Are you saying god possesses the maximmum amount of every quality?  Is he spicy?  Chocolatey?  Sweet?  Brave?  Cowardly?  Papery?  Pointy?  Smooth?  Heavy?  Light?  Flippant?  Serious?  Green?  Blue?  Smoky?  Smelly?  Cheesy?  Salty?

By this argument, if every quality has to come from something with a perfect form of that quality, god would have to possess all of those traits which would be logically impossible.  Otherwise, those traits exist without a god, and there's no reason other traits can not.

5.  That's just a completely unfounded premise.  Can you demonstrate that everything has a goal?  As far as I can tell, only living things do, which is a very small subset of everything.

If everything has a goal, why would that imply a spirit?  

1. The Church recognizes that our understanding of God's wil can change, that's a change on us, not on God.

2. God needs no cause because he's the prime mover. He's not subject to dependant origination.

3. True, that implies there must always have been something that has been put into effect to change into the world we know today. The originator of that change is God.

4. It's based on the ideological world of Aristotle. In which every object and being exist in a perfect form and everything in our world is in a way a reflection of this perfect object.

5. Of course immaterial objects have no spirit and goal, but they're created by things that do. A goal implies a spirit insofar it allows us to understand the wil of God and act accordingly.



WolfpackN64 said:
Peh said:

Whatever the argument. If it's premise is falacious, the conclusion can be, too. Even Newton was wrong on many occasions. But go on, tell me the philosopher and I will conclude the same. I don't care about who he is. I judge all equally. 

It's Thomas Aquinas if you're curious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas

Saint Thomas Aquinas O.P. (/əˈkwnəs/; Italian: Tommaso d'Aquino, lit. 'Thomas of Aquino'; 1225 – 7 March 1274), was an Italian[3][4] Dominican friar, Catholic priest, and Doctor of the Church. He was an immensely influential philosopher, theologian, and jurist in the tradition of scholasticism, within which he is also known as the Doctor Angelicus and the Doctor Communis.[5] The name Aquinas identifies his ancestral origins in the county of Aquino in present-day Lazio.

He was the foremost classical proponent of natural theology and the father of Thomism; of which he argued that reason is found in God.

There's the falacious premise. There goes the credibility. He was born in the 13th century. So science was pretty much in his baby steps. He may be influencal and of value for theists and theologians, but he has no value for me and modern science.  

All he probably did was reverse engineering. 



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