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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo Says It’s Looking To Appeal To Both Causal And Core Gamers With NX

FunFan said:
Dunban67 said:

I think you have done a very good job describing the " give and take" that Nintendo faces and how its decisions effect its potential customers going forward.  The reality is the NX will EITHER appeal more to the inexperienced gamer or more to the experienced gamer but it will not cannot appeal to them both equally by default  -   It's pretty simple " for every action there is a reaction" 

That assumes that both types of gamers have completely diferent tastes and under no circumstance their interests ever coincide.

No it does not - not at all -  i said it will appeal MORE toward one or the other - I did not say it will ONLY appeal to one or the other - big difference



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zorg1000 said:
FunFan said:

That assumes that both types of gamers have completely diferent tastes and under no circumstance their interests ever coincide.

Nope, you either like simplistic, casual, freemium mobile titles or you like complex, hardcore, blockbuster console titles. Nothing in between can exist.

Nintendo did basically try to make something in between. The Wii U. 

If Mario Kart and Splatoon and Mario Maker and New Super Mario Bros. and Rayman and Wii Fit U and Wii Party U and Nintendo Land and Kirby and Yoshi couldn't find the "in between audience" then one has to ask really where it exists. Also not every game on the PS4 is a "blockbuster" title there are "in between" titles there too. 

I mean surely if there was some overwhelming demand for "something in between" the Wii U could muster at least XBox One level sales (a system that also has many design defects and poor messaging). After all, Nintendo should have basically free reign, it's not like anyone is challenging them. 

The thing is with "console players" if you are a kid and you have a console in your house at age 5-7, by the time you are 15-16, you probably have quietly logged almost 1500 hours gaming a modest 4 hours per week (we know many kids play a helluva lot more than that but I'm erring on the lower side). 

1500 hours doing anything will make you pretty good at it. 

To buy a console you really need to also like a fairly wide variety of games. IMO this casual audience that likes Mario Kart and will buy a console just for Mario Kart ... nope. You need to like 6/7/8 franchises I think to really make the leap into buying a $250+ console, a $250 investment just to play 1 or 2 games for someone who doesn't care much for video games to begin with is a very, very hard sell. Even as an experienced gamer would I buy a Samsung console or something just because I like 2-3 games on it? Nope. This is why mobile is so great for casuals, they can get their small gaming itch scratched for free in a device they would want anyway.



Soundwave said:
zorg1000 said:

Nope, you either like simplistic, casual, freemium mobile titles or you like complex, hardcore, blockbuster console titles. Nothing in between can exist.

Nintendo did basically try to make something in between. The Wii U. 

If Mario Kart and Splatoon and Mario Maker and New Super Mario Bros. and Rayman and Wii Fit U and Wii Party U and Nintendo Land and Kirby and Yoshi couldn't find the "in between audience" then one has to ask really where it exists. Also not every game on the PS4 is a "blockbuster" title there are "in between" titles there too. 

I mean surely if there was some overwhelming demand for "something in between" the Wii U could muster at least XBox One level sales (a system that also has many design defects and poor messaging). After all, Nintendo should have basically free reign, it's not like anyone is challenging them. 

The thing is with "console players" if you are a kid and you have a console in your house at age 5-7, by the time you are 15-16, you probably have quietly logged almost 1500 hours gaming a modest 4 hours per week (we know many kids play a helluva lot more than that but I'm erring on the lower side). 

1500 hours doing anything will make you pretty good at it. 

To buy a console you really need to also like a fairly wide variety of games. IMO this casual audience that likes Mario Kart and will buy a console just for Mario Kart ... nope. You need to like 6/7/8 franchises I think to really make the leap into buying a $250+ console, a $250 investment just to play 1 or 2 games for someone who doesn't care much for video games to begin with is a very, very hard sell. Even as an experienced gamer would I buy a Samsung console or something just because I like 2-3 games on it? Nope. This is why mobile is so great for casuals, they can get their small gaming itch scratched for free in a device they would want anyway.

They also tried something in between with 3DS and it has sold 60 million so you cant just look at Wii U and come to the conclusion that people only like one side of the spectrum or the other.

You have even talked about how Wii U has a dozen things wrong with it, you cant just keep changing your reasons why you think something failed to fit into whatever argument you're having that day.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Soundwave said:

Nintendo did basically try to make something in between. The Wii U. 

If Mario Kart and Splatoon and Mario Maker and New Super Mario Bros. and Rayman and Wii Fit U and Wii Party U and Nintendo Land and Kirby and Yoshi couldn't find the "in between audience" then one has to ask really where it exists. Also not every game on the PS4 is a "blockbuster" title there are "in between" titles there too. 

I mean surely if there was some overwhelming demand for "something in between" the Wii U could muster at least XBox One level sales (a system that also has many design defects and poor messaging). After all, Nintendo should have basically free reign, it's not like anyone is challenging them. 

The thing is with "console players" if you are a kid and you have a console in your house at age 5-7, by the time you are 15-16, you probably have quietly logged almost 1500 hours gaming a modest 4 hours per week (we know many kids play a helluva lot more than that but I'm erring on the lower side). 

1500 hours doing anything will make you pretty good at it. 

To buy a console you really need to also like a fairly wide variety of games. IMO this casual audience that likes Mario Kart and will buy a console just for Mario Kart ... nope. You need to like 6/7/8 franchises I think to really make the leap into buying a $250+ console, a $250 investment just to play 1 or 2 games for someone who doesn't care much for video games to begin with is a very, very hard sell. Even as an experienced gamer would I buy a Samsung console or something just because I like 2-3 games on it? Nope. This is why mobile is so great for casuals, they can get their small gaming itch scratched for free in a device they would want anyway.

They also tried something in between with 3DS and it has sold 60 million so you cant just look at Wii U and come to the conclusion that people only like one side of the spectrum or the other.

You have even talked about how Wii U has a dozen things wrong with it, you cant just keep changing your reasons why you think something failed to fit into whatever argument you're having that day.

Pretty sure a big majority of 3DS buyers are traditional Nintendo handheld buyers. That would be kids and older players who grew up with Nintendo. Many of the so-called "casual" games on it flopped like Brain Training. 3DS is also overall the best dedicated portable and has the benefit of being basically the "PS4 of Japan" (the lead console) because Japan loves portables as their main console. And it was released early enough that the full impact of smart devices/tablets wasn't felt yet in the first year or so of its life cycle (which turned out to be the best year of its life cycle). 

If you can play Mario/Mario Kart/Zelda/Kirby well ... basically you have "mastery" over most gaming functionality (jumping, dodging enemies, steering, shooting projectiles, etc. etc.), you should be able to play most any video game.

Once you can play any video game, well then your choices are opened to more than just Nintendo and quite frankly Sony/MS do a better job of offering a better *overall* ecosystem of games, not just a narrow range of Nintendo IPs and then some OK third party support at best and virtually no support at worst. 

The main point though is Nintendo is not doing a very good job of finding a legitimate "middle ground". Nintendo's idea of it right now is basically make use very crappy hardware, tailor the system design towards beginners and casuals, and hope that throwing Zelda and Mario at the same group of gamers is "good enough" for the experienced players because the hardware is certainly not designed for them at all. There isn't a great deal of nuance to their philosphy at all. 



Soundwave said:
zorg1000 said:

They also tried something in between with 3DS and it has sold 60 million so you cant just look at Wii U and come to the conclusion that people only like one side of the spectrum or the other.

You have even talked about how Wii U has a dozen things wrong with it, you cant just keep changing your reasons why you think something failed to fit into whatever argument you're having that day.

Pretty sure a big majority of 3DS buyers are traditional Nintendo handheld buyers. That would be kids and older players who grew up with Nintendo. Many of the so-called "casual" games on it flopped like Brain Training. 3DS is also overall the best dedicated portable and has the benefit of being basically the "PS4 of Japan" (the lead console) because Japan loves portables as their main console. And it was released early enough that the full impact of smart devices/tablets wasn't felt yet in the first year or so of its life cycle (which turned out to be the best year of its life cycle). 

If you can play Mario/Mario Kart/Zelda/Kirby well ... basically you have "mastery" over most gaming functionality (jumping, dodging enemies, steering, shooting projectiles, etc. etc.), you should be able to play most any video game.

Once you can play any video game, well then your choices are opened to more than just Nintendo and quite frankly Sony/MS do a better job of offering a better *overall* ecosystem of games, not just a narrow range of Nintendo IPs and then some OK third party support at best and virtually no support at worst. 

The main point though is Nintendo is not doing a very good job of finding a legitimate "middle ground". Nintendo's idea of it right now is basically make use very crappy hardware, tailor the system design towards beginners and casuals, and hope that throwing Zelda and Mario at the same group of gamers is "good enough" for the experienced players because the hardware is certainly not designed for them at all. There isn't a great deal of nuance to their philosphy at all. 

You are just spouting nonsense, I talk about how there is a middle ground between simplistic, casual, mobile games & complex, hardcore, console games and somehow your rebuttle is that the most recent Brain Training flopped on 3DS. How is that relevant at all?

You are entirely too vague, you seem to live in a world that is black & white. Gamers are either casual or they are hardcore. Gamers are either novices or experts.

If you can play Mario, Kirby, Mario Kart than you can play basically any game? What kind of nonsense is that? It literally makes no sense.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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zorg1000 said:
Soundwave said:

Pretty sure a big majority of 3DS buyers are traditional Nintendo handheld buyers. That would be kids and older players who grew up with Nintendo. Many of the so-called "casual" games on it flopped like Brain Training. 3DS is also overall the best dedicated portable and has the benefit of being basically the "PS4 of Japan" (the lead console) because Japan loves portables as their main console. And it was released early enough that the full impact of smart devices/tablets wasn't felt yet in the first year or so of its life cycle (which turned out to be the best year of its life cycle). 

If you can play Mario/Mario Kart/Zelda/Kirby well ... basically you have "mastery" over most gaming functionality (jumping, dodging enemies, steering, shooting projectiles, etc. etc.), you should be able to play most any video game.

Once you can play any video game, well then your choices are opened to more than just Nintendo and quite frankly Sony/MS do a better job of offering a better *overall* ecosystem of games, not just a narrow range of Nintendo IPs and then some OK third party support at best and virtually no support at worst. 

The main point though is Nintendo is not doing a very good job of finding a legitimate "middle ground". Nintendo's idea of it right now is basically make use very crappy hardware, tailor the system design towards beginners and casuals, and hope that throwing Zelda and Mario at the same group of gamers is "good enough" for the experienced players because the hardware is certainly not designed for them at all. There isn't a great deal of nuance to their philosphy at all. 

You are just spouting nonsense, I talk about how there is a middle ground between simplistic, casual, mobile games & complex, hardcore, console games and somehow your rebuttle is that the most recent Brain Training flopped on 3DS. How is that relevant at all?

You are entirely too vague, you seem to live in a world that is black & white. Gamers are either casual or they are hardcore. Gamers are either novices or experts.

If you can play Mario, Kirby, Mario Kart than you can play basically any game? What kind of nonsense is that? It literally makes no sense.

The sales data we see every month indicates the market of today there isn't much of a market for "in between" games or perhaps your definition of "in between" games and what the market considers "in between" has changed. 

Today's "in between" game may well be things like Uncharted or Overwatch or "Calladooty" instead of Megaman and Sonic and Banjo-Kazooie. These are changes in market tastes in terms of game presentation. It happens in every entertainment medium, whether its TV or movies or popular music, so there was never a reason to expect games would stay static in the 80s/90s forever. I would say Madden, FIFA, NBA2K are also "in between" games. 

Nintendo's IP remain popular because they have a very loyal core group of fans that will support Mario/Zelda/Pokemon/etc. because they grew up with those IP in the 80s/90s/early 2000s so they can withstand those changing general market tastes. 

If you can master the concepts of a game like Mario 3D World ... then sure I think you could play most any game. Mario basically teaches all the "basics" that most core video games have at their core ... running, maneuvering in a 3D space, dodging, jumping, developing fast reflexes, even shooting projectiles. If you're proficient in a game like Mario 3D World, sure I think you could put many games in front of that player and they'd be OK at them. 

The issue is many people don't even want to learn even that much, they just don't have that level of interest in games and never will, let them have their fun with their touch only games. I have a fiance who's in this boat, she doesn't want to even get good at something like Mario 3D World or Splatoon, and no amout of fancy dressing or presentation or different controllers will ever change that. She'll try it for 5-10 minutes, get frustrated, and then want to stop playing.



bonzobanana said:
There is still hope with the NX if it becomes a very fashionable product like wii or typical Apple products. If the product comes to market visually pleasing and trendy then they can create a userbase from that. The wii was more than the sum of its parts and so perhaps maybe the NX.

I think we all know instinctively that the NX will be truly awful for multiformat ports and few will buy them if they do make them. Exclusive NX core games will have lowish sales because the userbase will be quite small with a low number of core gamers.

When I bought my wii u at first I tried to convince myself it was a capable system but reality hit home when even games like Call of Duty had worse frame rates than 360 and PS3 and missing detail too all at the same resolution. Add to injury using the gamepad was a real pain compared to 360 and ps3 and the final nail in the coffin was the huge load times due to lack of hard drive. It's going to be pretty much the same with NX compared to ps4 and xbone. Missing detail, horrible controller, inferior frame rates, lower resolution and probably slower load times due to high compression used to get games on small cartridges. You can only really justify buying Nintendo hardware normally for Nintendo games and I have a wii u already for Zelda U so don't need NX for that.

So this core gamer argument is unlikely due to hardware and userbase.

I think there is a possibility that Nintendo will cancel the NX altogether if the reveal shows general apathy towards it.

If its anything like the eurogamer info and doesn't have an amazing trick up its sleeve its probably dead on arrival.

Here we have soundwave's alt account spreading BS about wii u/nintendo. Nothing new here.



Soundwave said:
RolStoppable said:

I kept my posts short on purpose, so that you don't get lost. Unfortunately, that didn't help.

Nobody in this thread said that new gameplay experiences only started with the Wii. You made the argument that significant jumps in processing power are needed in order to offer new types of games and experiences, to which I responded that the Wii offered them without having a big increase in processing power. Let's look at my post again:

You should have continued with the generations. The Wii offered new types of games and experiences despite its lack of a full generational jump for its hardware. That raises the question how important is processing power in this day and age. Console generations prior to the Wii could offer new types of games and experiences in large part due to the increased processing power, but since then it has been first and foremost about prettier coats for gameplay that we have already seen before.

If you interpret the above as "new gameplay experiences only started with the Wii", then you suffer from a serious deficit in reading comprehension. It's what makes it so hard to have a discussion with you, because in your mind you rearrange the arguments you are confronted with to such a large degree that the arguments do not even resemble anymore what they originally were.

So from my side, this conversation is over.

The conversation is over because in general you know you don't have much of a leg to stand on in this thread and you're cherry picking one point to save face with. 

Every console generation has new game play experiences. Every. Single. One. 

And hardware matters even now, the Splatoon designers for example have said they couldn't make Splatoon on the 3DS (which is about on par with a Wii) because it cannot handle the physics and demands of the paint effects in the game. The Mario Maker designer has also said Mario Maker won't run on a 3DS. 

So yes, even post-Wii ... hardware matters for game experiences, even for cartoony Nintendo games. 

Beyond that, offering your consumers lazy, outdated hardware just because "gameplay" in and of itself is not a great way to run a business. Do I need a 1080P+ resolution display on my phone? No, but it's nice to have, not everything needs to be an asbolute neccessity. I don't *need* power windows in my car, I don't need a flat screen TV, but progress is a good thing it creates an overall better experience. 

I don't ever want to play Splatoon or Xenoblade X or Zelda: Breath of the Wild or even Mario 3D World on the original 480p Wii with all the other comrpomises that would have to be made, and no I don't feel "guilty" about that feeling. 

Sya the crazy troll that pulls things from his ass and treats as facts. Forget your NX agenda, it's pitiful.



Tenebrae77 said:
bonzobanana said:
There is still hope with the NX if it becomes a very fashionable product like wii or typical Apple products. If the product comes to market visually pleasing and trendy then they can create a userbase from that. The wii was more than the sum of its parts and so perhaps maybe the NX.

I think we all know instinctively that the NX will be truly awful for multiformat ports and few will buy them if they do make them. Exclusive NX core games will have lowish sales because the userbase will be quite small with a low number of core gamers.

When I bought my wii u at first I tried to convince myself it was a capable system but reality hit home when even games like Call of Duty had worse frame rates than 360 and PS3 and missing detail too all at the same resolution. Add to injury using the gamepad was a real pain compared to 360 and ps3 and the final nail in the coffin was the huge load times due to lack of hard drive. It's going to be pretty much the same with NX compared to ps4 and xbone. Missing detail, horrible controller, inferior frame rates, lower resolution and probably slower load times due to high compression used to get games on small cartridges. You can only really justify buying Nintendo hardware normally for Nintendo games and I have a wii u already for Zelda U so don't need NX for that.

So this core gamer argument is unlikely due to hardware and userbase.

I think there is a possibility that Nintendo will cancel the NX altogether if the reveal shows general apathy towards it.

If its anything like the eurogamer info and doesn't have an amazing trick up its sleeve its probably dead on arrival.

Here we have soundwave's alt account spreading BS about wii u/nintendo. Nothing new here.

I don't use alt accounts (unlike a certain someone AHEM ZERO, lmao), if I want to say something I'll say it, I don't care if it's a popular opinion or not. And cancelling the NX at this point? LOL, that's not gonna happen, Nintendo is too stubborn to do something like that even if the response to it is incredibly negative. 

I don't think it's DOA either, I think it'll sell well enough, maybe not light the world on fire, but 40-50 million units should be doable (of course it could be a bit lower or considerably higher too if the stars align well for Nintendo). 



Soundwave said:
Tenebrae77 said:

Here we have soundwave's alt account spreading BS about wii u/nintendo. Nothing new here.

I don't use alt accounts (unlike a certain someone AHEM ZERO, lmao), if I want to say something I'll say it, I don't care if it's a popular opinion or not. And cancelling the NX at this point? LOL, that's not gonna happen, Nintendo is too stubborn to do something like that even if the response to it is incredibly negative. 

I don't think it's DOA either, I think it'll sell well enough, maybe not light the world on fire, but 40-50 million units should be doable (of course it could be a bit lower or considerably higher too if the stars align well for Nintendo). 

Cancel NX? lololololol who said anything like that?