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Forums - Politics Discussion - Man's Perspective on Donald Trump's Campaign: Dear Trump Supporters

Doesn't really matter, since Cruz will be the Republican nominee. Though, I suppose most of these supporters will become Cruz supporters after he wins the nomination.

You see, Trump is so incompetent he doesn't even know how the nomination/delegate process works for the very party he is running for. He thinks he can show up, throw a big rally or two, then leave the state and things will work out for him. In states that have been having local delegate elections, instead of the big publicized statewide elections, he hasn't even bothered to show up. And in states he has showed up and won, he fires his staff right after, so there is no one there to influence the later delegate nominations.

Cruz won all of CO's and WY's remaining delegates. Georgia just nominated 42 of their delegates, and Cruz was able to get his supporters in about 28 of them. Trump supporters, who were probably left to fend for themselves after the primary on March 1st, said they were only able to get just over a dozen spots. That means after some of them are required to vote for Trump in the first vote at the convention, they will back Cruz in the next rounds of voting. Cruz will take it in the 2nd or 3rd vote.



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WolfpackN64 said:

1. Ah please. Will you guys stop believing in this Libertarian bullshit?

2. Europe is becoming more and more neoliberal. Everything is becoming privatised for the argument of efficiëncy.

3. You know what the funny thing is about the free market and public sectors? They don't mix. The free market is terribly inneficiënt whent it comes to making sure people have good healthcare, decent transport and energy sectors. Why? Because you need to look at the public good, not at the cheapest and fastest way to do it. Private charities are a good way to give the rich some ease of mind. In the ideal world though, we need structural solutions to eliminate poverty and halt the corporate grip on our lives.

4. The solution, of course, is a modern command economy.

5. The only part where I agree is that defense spending everywhere is just too damn high.

1. Great way to start an argument. Marginalize another person's views! 

2. Is it? Handing priveleges to large-scale private companies is not a "free-market" that is just government handouts. Allowing people to privatise the common resources through labor is the proper way. Europe is becoming more corporatist, not more laissez-faire. 

3. People used to say the same thing about education, but somehow there are plenty of places with a focus on private education that exceed the outcomes of the current public systems here in the U.S. Practically everything managed by the federal state, or states here goes to ruin. So even if the free-market isn't that great with providing certain services, I really can't see how the government has been? Just look at the Veteran affairs system for how well public hospitals would work here, the disrepair of state roads for how well they've managed roads (despite having tons of revenue to do so), and the public opinion demolishing alternative energy solutions like nuclear and state taxes on clean solutions like solar disuading people from using better energy solutions than fossil fuels. 

4. LOL, you mean the type of command economies that have failed a billion times already? The types that are failing currently in Venezuela and Brasil? Don't make me laugh. Command-economies can't even get the people fed, how are they suppose to solve these other things that are supposedly outside of the abilities of markets? The economic calculation problem just prevents command-economies from working. No person or set of people are smarter at determining the supply and demand curves of a good than the emergent orders caused by billions of individuals voluntarily exchanging - in other words "The Market" is. 

"Let's try socialism again, even though it has never worked in the dozens of times it was attempted!" - The Motto of People Who Never Learn From Their Mistakes

5. Cool, at least we have some common ground. Unfortunately, militarism is the good most purchased by states that attempt "command economies." The reason why? Because "command economies" rely on a presupposition of the use of force by the state. Just think of what the word "command" means. And the mililtary is the means by which they enforce their "commands." 



I wasn't sure where they was going, but it's well said. Yes, people are both angry, and angry at the wrong people.

I am both please and amazed how well Bernie Sanders is doing. Still there are many people that panic and freak out at the world 'Socialism.' And it my experience, they are usually the ones most supported by it!

Public schools, police, fire, all live of the public socialism. Working for the military, living off military benefits? Socialism. Disability? Yup, that's socialism. Medicare? Social Security? yup, more socialism. And those are the people I've found to most support Trump. It's so strange they can't see what they are doing to themselves.

It's more like they have their piece, and they don't want anyone else to get one.

Anyway, good video, hope it helps people understand that it's not the way to go. Although, I think Trump is probably better than Cruz or Rubio. Scary as that sounds.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

the-pi-guy said:

3.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpzvaqypav8

4.  Venezuela is very different from what is being pushed for.  

3 Not a John Oliver fan. I might watch it. (edit: Watched half the video. Seems to confirm my statement - the government is very bad at keeping up with  infrastructure.Now let's compare the infrastructure government is responsible for - roads, dams, bridges, to the infrastructure private business is responsible for electricity, telecommunications, etc. Which is fairing better? Every year new cell towers are put in for faster wireless internet speeds. The U.S electric grid is probably the best in the world for a country its size. Government is better at what? )

4. He specifically mentioned a "command" economy, which is exactly what Venezuela transitioned to in the late 90's.  As for whether or not Venezuela is what Bernie espouses, for almost a decade the Democratic Socialist party of America showed Venezuela as an accomplished democratic socialist country. It wasn't until the economy went down the gutter that they denounced it and Hugo Chavez (calling him a dictator even though he was democratically elected.) 



Zappykins said:

Public schools, police, fire, all live of the public socialism. Working for the military, living off military benefits? Socialism. Disability? Yup, that's socialism. Medicare? Social Security? yup, more socialism. And those are the people I've found to most support Trump. It's so strange they can't see what they are doing to themselves.

Public schools are pretty crappy compared to private schools, and private schools elsewhere in countries that have school choice (like Japan, Hong Kong, etc are much better.  

The military is overbloated and shows just how bad socialism can be, people take orders without using their capacity of reason, are brainwashed into blind nationalism, and don't ask questions just because they are taken care of.  If there is any example of why we shouldn't accept socialism, it is the example of the military. There is no freedom in the socialist military. Plus, there is no reason why we couldn't have a volunteer militia system in the United States considering how many weapons are here, and how difficult it would be to attack strategically with little cost. Standing army's are quite ridiculous concepts really and the myth that we need the current military to protect our freedoms is just that - a myth. 

Disability, is probably the most abused social program. 

Social Security is a very poor retirement plan because the government couldn't keep its hands out of the public trust fund. Most people won't see what they put in. Also it is a regressive tax, I am unsure whether socialists would've qualified it as socialism really. If anything it redistributes from the poor to the rich.  Australia's superannuation system, which is private, is much better and more secure. 

Most firefighters are volunteer, and we could probably do the same with police in most places and not notice a difference. 



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sc94597 said:

1. Great way to start an argument. Marginalize another person's views! 

2. Is it? Handing priveleges to large-scale private companies is not a "free-market" that is just government handouts. Allowing people to privatise the common resources through labor is the proper way. Europe is becoming more corporatist, not more laissez-faire. 

3. People used to say the same thing about education, but somehow there are plenty of places with a focus on private education that exceed the outcomes of the current public systems here in the U.S. Practically everything managed by the federal state, or states here goes to ruin. So even if the free-market isn't that great with providing certain services, I really can't see how the government has been? Just look at the Veteran affairs system for how well public hospitals would work here, the disrepair of state roads for how well they've managed roads (despite having tons of revenue to do so), and the public opinion demolishing alternative energy solutions like nuclear and state taxes on clean solutions like solar disuading people from using better energy solutions than fossil fuels. 

4. LOL, you mean the type of command economies that have failed a billion times already? The types that are failing currently in Venezuela and Brasil? Don't make me laugh. Command-economies can't even get the people fed, how are they suppose to solve these other things that are supposedly outside of the abilities of markets? The economic calculation problem just prevents command-economies from working. No person or set of people are smarter at determining the supply and demand curves of a good than the emergent orders caused by billions of individuals voluntarily exchanging - in other words "The Market" is. 

"Let's try socialism again, even though it has never worked in the dozens of times it was attempted!" - The Motto of People Who Never Learn From Their Mistakes

5. Cool, at least we have some common ground. Unfortunately, militarism is the good most purchased by states that attempt "command economies." The reason why? Because "command economies" rely on a presupposition of the use of force by the state. Just think of what the word "command" means. And the mililtary is the means by which they enforce their "commands." 

They don't hand out priviliges, they loosen the regulations and taxes bit by bit and this "happens" to mostly benifit the large corporations. Capitalism always has a tendancy towards monopoly. The problem with public funding in the US is already well documented. It's hard to organize good public schools when you count in part on private schools (which are much more expensive then public schools). I you look in Europe, most public schools manage great. Command economies can work great and even held up the fast pace of the free market economies. I took a good look at your "economic calculation problem" and I had to conclude it a bunch of bogus. Command economy failed in the USSR for well defined reasons. Failure of development of computing power to calculate an ever more complex economy, corruption in the political apparatus and a disproportionate military spending.

If you want to take a good look at militarism, I suggest you take a look at your military industrial complex. Why do you think american weapons are on nearly all sides of conflicts in the middle east?

Venezuela and Brazil are not command economies. Venezuela has a lot of social correction programs, but it's in essence still a free-market economy.



WolfpackN64 said:

1. They don't hand out priviliges,they loosen the regulations and taxes bit by bit and this "happens" to mostly benifit the large corporations. Capitalism always has a tendancy towards monopoly.

2. The problem with public funding in the US is already well documented. It's hard to organize good public schools when you count in part on private schools (which are much more expensive then public schools). I you look in Europe, most public schools manage great. Command economies can work great and even held up the fast pace of the free market economies. I took a good look at your "economic calculation problem" and I had to conclude it a bunch of bogus. Command economy failed in the USSR for well defined reasons. Failure of development of computing power to calculate an ever more complex economy, corruption in the political apparatus and a disproportionate military spending.

3. If you want to take a good look at militarism, I suggest you take a look at your military industrial complex. Why do you think american weapons are on nearly all sides of conflicts in the middle east?

4. Venezuela and Brazil are not command economies. Venezuela has a lot of social correction programs, but it's in essence still a free-market economy.

1.

They only lift regulations if it benefits their favorite companies. Most of the time new regulations are made to reduce competition by creating costs that the competition can't keep up with. It is why the very same regulations people are enamored by are usually written by corporate lawyers. And there are plenty of corporate subsidies in modern mixed economies. Most countries have a large corporate welfare budget.

But it isn't just "capitalists" espousing free-markets. Look at market socialists like mutualists (Proudhon), and individualist anarchists like Spooner and Tucker. They weren't in favor of "capitalism", which is really just a marxist derogatory term for a market system, but at the time (19th century) colloquially applied to mixed economies in which government favored big-business. Capitalism =!= free-markets then. None of these self-proclaimed socialists believed command economies could bring economic equality. They believed the only way was through markets. Can you substantiate your claim that capitalism leads to monopoly? I have never read that theorem in any of my economics courses. Usually monopolies are caused and maintained by force. If you give me a historical monopoly I can cite the government program or policy which led to and prolonged it.  Anyway, if the state controls all goods, is the state not also a de-facto monopoly on not just one thing, but everything? So obviously your problem isn't with monopolies, but rather who/what entity controls them. 

2.

What problem of public funding is there? The federal government alone is 19 trillion dollars in debt on top of its $4 trillion/year in tax revenue. I certainly wouldn't call that a problem of funding, and would rather call that a problem of  spending. Furthermore, the U.S spends more per child than most other countries on education. 


How exactly is it hard to organize good public schools because private schools exist? All people who attend private schools also have parents who pay property taxes which fund public education. It isn't like they get tax exemptions. As for European schools, except for a few exceptions like Finland, even they don't compare to Asian schools, many of which have large-scale private systems in which high school is not compulsory. 

All of the bolded are side-effects of the economic calculation problem. None of these are problems in a free-market. In a free-market you don't have a strong political apparatus to corrupt, you don't have to rely on computers to calculate information that is already being transferred via prices  as shown by Hayek's price signal theory, which he won the Nobel Prize for, and in a free-market you don't have a bloated government with a bloated military spending precious resources on said bloated military.

3.

Because the state has the power to use taxpayer money to fund these wars. The military-industrial complex would not exist without the state's intervention in the market and creation of the military. 

4.

Venezuela had a relatively unfree-market, and now they barely have anything that resembles a market at all. It is quite ridiculous to call Venezuela a "free-market economy" when the government sets price limits, has nationalized their biggest resource (oil), has large restrictions on exports, the money is worth nothing, etc, etc. People are literally arrested for smuggling food outside the country to resell because the prices are set very low, and arbitrarily so by the state. People stand in lines waiting for the shortage of goods induced by these very same price ceilings. The only feature Venezuela doesn't have (yet) is forced labor and labor camps. 

Here is a good essay on the topic: 

https://www.ukessays.com/essays/economics/has-the-venezuelan-economy-transformed-into-a-planned-economy-economics-essay.php

In this investigation, I found information that supports the transformation to a planned economy from a free market economy in Venezuela. The evidence included: increased government bureaucracy, nationalization of the private sector, increased government spending in social welfare, and increased manipulation of the currency. This has led Hugo Chavez's government to gain greater control of the Venezuelan economic system since his election in 1998. The government is able to decide which goods and services are considered to be important for society. Such examples are the heavily subsidized food distribution firms (MERCAL and PDVAL) created by the government .

In this investigation, there are a number of difficulties that hinder the gathering of evidence. First, it was hard to gain true statistics regarding the economy. For example, the unemployment rate is hard to determine due to the fact that workers in the informal sector of the economy are included in the statistics which constitutes half of the country's total workforce [61] . It was difficult to find statistical data to support the losses of business budget. Despite my attempts to access this information through internet sources, I was unsuccessful. Secondly there has been a strong political bias in many articles, books, and interviews. These biases affected my research and influenced me deeply, though I made every attempt to remain objective. In addition, it was often hard to separate politics from economics where both are closely linked together.

These shortcomings together with a lack of time beg for further and more in depth research to formalize conclusions. Specifically, I would wish to focus on a significant number of concrete business cases where the government's interference in the economy has greatly affected their profitability. I would be interested in confirming the statistical data to support the hypothesis presented. However, the evidence and research presented here demonstrate that there are elements to sustain my hypothesis. It is clear that the government is seriously attempting to impose upon the country a planned economy of the Venezuela. Whether the government is able to complete a transition to a fully planned economy or not, this conclusion stands regardless.

In my opinion, the move to the planned economy under Hugo Chavez can have a negative impact on Venezuela as it has negatively limited the freedom of Venezuelan businesses and increased government interference in the economy. Evidence can be found in articles discussing the current brain drain [62] ; the educated Venezuelans are more likely to leave the country. Many of these educated people whom are students, professors, doctors, business owners and so forth have either moved to Colombia or to the United States.



sc94597 said:
Zappykins said:

Public schools, police, fire, all live of the public socialism. Working for the military, living off military benefits? Socialism. Disability? Yup, that's socialism. Medicare? Social Security? yup, more socialism. And those are the people I've found to most support Trump. It's so strange they can't see what they are doing to themselves.

Public schools are pretty crappy compared to private schools, and private schools elsewhere in countries that have school choice (like Japan, Hong Kong, etc are much better.  

The military is overbloated and shows just how bad socialism can be, people take orders without using their capacity of reason, are brainwashed into blind nationalism, and don't ask questions just because they are taken care of.  If there is any example of why we shouldn't accept socialism, it is the example of the military. There is no freedom in the socialist military. Plus, there is no reason why we couldn't have a volunteer militia system in the United States considering how many weapons are here, and how difficult it would be to attack strategically with little cost. Standing army's are quite ridiculous concepts really and the myth that we need the current military to protect our freedoms is just that - a myth. 

Disability, is probably the most abused social program. 

Social Security is a very poor retirement plan because the government couldn't keep its hands out of the public trust fund. Most people won't see what they put in. Also it is a regressive tax, I am unsure whether socialists would've qualified it as socialism really. If anything it redistributes from the poor to the rich.  Australia's superannuation system, which is private, is much better and more secure. 

Most firefighters are volunteer, and we could probably do the same with police in most places and not notice a difference. 

So, did you have a point or just wanted to complain?

Military is always about following the orders of your superior.  Doesn't matter what form the government is.  The soliders are supposed to go kill people, even each other, if so commanded.

Social Security?  Most people get back more than what they put in?  Do you even math?  Cause it seems like you just made those up.

Firefighters?  Volunteer?  I don't think that means what you think it means.  They do get paid, and usually they make a very good living.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

Zappykins said:

So, did you have a point or just wanted to complain?

Military is always about following the orders of your superior.  Doesn't matter what form the government is.  The soliders are supposed to go kill people, even each other, if so commanded.

Social Security?  Most people get back more than what they put in?  Do you even math?  Cause it seems like you just made those up.

Firefighters?  Volunteer?  I don't think that means what you think it means.  They do get paid, and usually they make a very good living.

Your point was that the military was supposedly some good and it was socialist. I argued that it was bad, and it was precisely because of its socialist nature. Without public funding there would be no military, so I don't know what you mean by "doesn't matter what form the government is" because every standing army is funded through socialist means - taxation. Voluntary militias don't have the same problems with ignoring morality as standing armies do. 

Social Security - 

Below is when the boomers just started retiring in 2010. 


"


For an average-wage-earning, two-income couple turning 65 in 2010, the pay-in, pay-out ratio for Social Security by itself will actually be slightly negative —- the couple will have paid $600,000 in lifetime Social Security taxes and will receive only$579,000 in lifetime Social Security benefits. (Remember, the couple didn’t literally pay out $600,000; that’s the current value of what they paid out over the years, plus an additional 2 percent they may have gotten had it been invested.)"

http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/14/news/economy/social-security-benefits/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The system is now paying out more in benefits than it collects in income, with the difference coming from the so-called trust fund, the result of surplus revenue previously paid into the system. But the trust fund is set to run out in 2033, after which the program will only be able to pay about three-quarters of promised benefits, according to the Social Security trustees.

"What we are paying into the system is paying for our parents' benefits," Steuerle said. "But it's not clear what that entitles us to get from our kids.""

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 My local firefighters do not get paid in cash. Some get "gifts" but it isn't a job that people hold. It is an extra on top of their real job/school. I knew a few kids in high school who volunteered.The exception is the EMT service which is compensated for each ride it gives, but that is not the fire-service. Also most of the funding for the volunteer fire department is accrued through donations and fund-raisers. So, I don't think YOU  understand what volunteer means in this case, it means exactly what it means in any other case. 

Here is a google search for you. 

https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=volunteer+firefighters+get+paid%3F&oq=volunteer+firefighters+get+paid%3F&gs_l=hp.3..0i22i30l10.196.4717.0.4933.35.26.1.0.0.0.322.3952.0j12j6j2.20.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..14.20.3832.0.2Rd-pqx6mOk

"Volunteer firefighters do not get paid, but they can get reimbursed. Reimbursement is usually a small amount of tax-free money for time spent on shifts, responding to calls and training. The amount is usually at the discretion of the department."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer_fire_department

According to the National Fire Protection Association, 69 percent of firefighters in the United States are volunteers.[9] The National Volunteer Fire Council represents the fire and emergency services on a national level, providing advocacy, information, resources, and programs to support volunteer first responders. The NVFC includes 49 state-based firefighter associations such as the Firemen's Association of the State of New York (FASNY), which provides information, education and training for the volunteer fire and emergency medical services throughout New York State.



the-pi-guy said:
sc94597 said:

Your point was that the military was supposedly some good and it was socialist. I argued that it was bad, and it was precisely because of its socialist nature. Without public funding there would be no military, so I don't know what you mean by "doesn't matter what form the government is" because every standing army is funded through socialist means - taxation. Voluntary militias don't have the same problems with ignoring morality as standing armies do. 

"Up until now, Social Security has been a windfall for many retirees: They collected far more in benefits than they shelled out in taxes."

So clearly at some point it was working.  

As for the bold, I don't think we know that for certain.  

"When it comes to Medicare, however, virtually all Americans are getting far more than they pay in taxes, which is 2.9% on all of one's income, not including the new 0.9% surtax on high earners. The couple turning 65 in 2010 paid a scant $122,000 in Medicare taxes, but can expect to get $427,000 in benefits. And that pattern isn't reversing any time soon ... the spread actually widens for future generations."

 

Looks like it's working pretty darn good.  

Yeah you know until the ratio of old people to working people was high and the funds were raided by the government to pay for other things. Just because something works in one time period does not mean it will work perpetually. The Societ Union worked for 70 years until it all came crashing down. Fuedalism worked for hundreds of years.

Who was talking about Medicare? That is an entirely different system with entirely different problems.