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Forums - Politics Discussion - Bernie Sanders confuses me

Wyrdness said:

Poor argument as financial executives have been getting away with illegal activities for decades looks at the situation with the banks, no one has gone to jail, finance holds a lot of power over politics and law because they have influence over the flow of money, HSBC the biggest bank in the world were confirmed to be laundering money for criminals, you're naive if you think it's all straight forward. Loopholes aren't legal either hence why they're often closed and you find many businesses do face fines as well for this, the are people who have been convicted for this in the US as well.

You say that financial executives have been getting away with this for decades and that no one has gone to jail but you also mention people going to jail for it including businesses been fined. Choose one or the other, you can't have both! 

Authorities only have as much power to act as they do for evidence and HSBC got fined 40 million swiss francs recently so justice can be served ...

Wyrdness said:

You don't seem to get what's said here, that salary you're getting is nothing the only reason you're paid what you are now is because of the law otherwise companies would never pay you no matter how good you are I think you're dreaming here if you think companies will look after you. What is being given to you by one hand is being taken by the other hand, my example highlights this perfectly as what you're being paid is what will go on to pay back the system while they keep a large chunk of the pie scot free, you try to dismiss the example yet have presented nothing that concretely challenges it.

Salaries aren't nothing. It's the businesses that pay us our own salaries, the law doesn't give us a damn! If a company doesn't want to pay it's employees then they can both go look elsewhere. Companies do care about their employees, at least their high quality/high value ones such as doctors, engineers, managers, and etc. It's like I say, companies will pay you for what your truly worth so salaries are largely meritocratic. The reason why less fortunate are the ones more likely to keep circulating that wealth is because most of them don't know how to break that cycle ...

Wyrdness said:

The part about Greece tells me you don't fully know the situation, do you know why Greece borrows so much? It's because of taxes, no one was really paying taxes for decades even to the point of over a century they were lax on taxes so the country's finances had to be made up by borrowing, taxes are what fund developed countries. Heres some knowledge from working inside finance myself in the last century Greece has defaulted 10 times because the has never been strict effort to collect money and evasion of tax was common. If it weren't for them being in the Euro the other countries in the EU may have even been more harsh in the bailout money terms on what they owe and this is money they have to pay back.

That's cause the Greece government is incompetent. Either that or it's much worse. They've had a tax revenue of at least 18% since 1995! That means everyone in Greece ponied up 18% of it's income just for the government ...

I fail to see why the taxation system is an issue when they've been paying that much for a long time ...



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I really don't understand these people who think corporations need to pay US taxes on earnings that were earned overseas. They do pay taxes on money earned inside the US, they don't want to bring the money they earned abroad back to America because of taxes. They are not obligated in any way to bring that money to the US, they already paid taxes in the country where the money was earned.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

fatslob-:O said:

You say that financial executives have been getting away with this for decades and that no one has gone to jail but you also mention people going to jail for it including businesses been fined. Choose one or the other, you can't have both! 

Authorities only have as much power to act as they do for evidence and HSBC got fined 40 million swiss francs recently so justice can be served ...

Salaries aren't nothing. It's the businesses that pay us our own salaries, the law doesn't give us a damn! If a company doesn't want to pay it's employees then they can both go look elsewhere. Companies do care about their employees, at least their high quality/high value ones such as doctors, engineers, managers, and etc. It's like I say, companies will pay you for what your truly worth so salaries are largely meritocratic. The reason why less fortunate are the ones more likely to keep circulating that wealth is because most of them don't know how to break that cycle ...

That's cause the Greece government is incompetent. Either that or it's much worse. They've had a tax revenue of at least 18% since 1995! That means everyone in Greece ponied up 18% of it's income just for the government ...

I fail to see why the taxation system is an issue when they've been paying that much for a long time ...

You can have both that's the point, for every few getting jailed many more get away scott free the's one or the other finance has been operating like that for years now, they'd take a fine anyday as it means nothing to them. 40m CHF to the biggest bank in the world whose worth can total to £400bn, yeah sure that will show them considering they make more then that fine within weeks, ask yourself this who is the fine being paid to, no infact I tell you the same groups who the banks control the flow of money for so the fine instantly flows back to the banks. If you want to know how much power a bank has over you right now just look at the recessions, it was triggered by them messing about, look up the strategy know as the greater fool, this was used by some institutes with the mortgages in anticipation of some kind of recession.

Salaries are nothing, what goes into your bank is going to go back into the system unless you are one of the top earners it's one of the biggest illusions around, if you think companies pay out of the good of their heart and the law has no bearing you're kidding yourself as the law is why you're getting paid. Why do you think minimum wage exists in many countries if companies cared? Why do you think a lot of your own US products are made in counties like China by ultra cheap labour instead of providing jobs back home? Why do you think the are things like Unions for different industries? The law stepped in to make sure people are paid a fair amount and clamped down on exploitation otherwise you'd be doing your work for free if left up to companies, look up history business has never cared for the people and workers, all that matters are their own pockets. Companies don't pay what they think you're worth that's you dreaming they pay what the rate of what the role is again this was all the doing of the laws and Unions.

18% of what exactly, that doesn't tell us anything, most of the money was going to offshores like what the US companies do so they're gaining 18% of depleted funds that shrunk more and more by the day, it's not the perecentage it's what the percentage is of not to mention factors like the currency they were using before the switch to Euro. and many offshore users who don't even declare their money so that 18% doesn't mean anything if it's coming from the bare minimum and doesn't cover the country's standard of living.



johnsobas said:
I really don't understand these people who think corporations need to pay US taxes on earnings that were earned overseas. They do pay taxes on money earned inside the US, they don't want to bring the money they earned abroad back to America because of taxes. They are not obligated in any way to bring that money to the US, they already paid taxes in the country where the money was earned.

The reason for this is that these companies do business citing the US as their main and only base of operations when registering in other countries to reduce taxes so in actuality they have to pay on their earnings. They how ever use a loophole where send the money to offshore accounts instead at which point because the money hasn't touch the US system yet the government can't charge them and has no pull with the authorities. 



Wyrdness said:
johnsobas said:
I really don't understand these people who think corporations need to pay US taxes on earnings that were earned overseas. They do pay taxes on money earned inside the US, they don't want to bring the money they earned abroad back to America because of taxes. They are not obligated in any way to bring that money to the US, they already paid taxes in the country where the money was earned.

The reason for this is that these companies do business citing the US as their main and only base of operations when registering in other countries to reduce taxes so in actuality they have to pay on their earnings. They how ever use a loophole where send the money to offshore accounts instead at which point because the money hasn't touch the US system yet the government can't charge them and has no pull with the authorities. 

The money isn't earned in the US.  They don't send the money offshore, it's already offshore.  



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

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Just 1 company apple alone bringing it's reserves from offshore would be a huge boost to the US economy. They are based in the US already.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

johnsobas said:

The money isn't earned in the US.  They don't send the money offshore, it's already offshore.  

It's earned on the basis that US is the main base of operations with no real main branch in the country of business so basically you're running your service or selling your product on US soil, so essentially it is techincally US money otherwise the company has to pay full tax in the country of business, if you haven't seen business applications it's tricky to understand. The money is sent offshore as it's not even kept in the country of business it's sent to specific accounts in certain countries, this is because if kept in the UK or Switzerland for example the US can enquire and even strike up courses of action to retrieve the money.

Offshore in financial terms are accounts in places US/EU etc... has practically little ties with such as various Carribbean locations.



Wyrdness said:
johnsobas said:

The money isn't earned in the US.  They don't send the money offshore, it's already offshore.  

It's earned on the basis that US is the main base of operations with no real main branch in the country of business so basically you're running your service or selling your product on US soil, so essentially it is techincally US money otherwise the company has to pay full tax in the country of business, if you haven't seen business applications it's tricky to understand. The money is sent offshore as it's not even kept in the country of business it's sent to specific accounts in certain countries, this is because if kept in the UK or Switzerland for example the US can enquire and even strike up courses of action to retrieve the money.

Offshore in financial terms are accounts in places US has practically little ties with such as various Carribbean locations.

Ok, but that was not what i was talking about.  So don't respond to my post.



currently playing: Skyward Sword, Mario Sunshine, Xenoblade Chronicles X

Wyrdness said:

You can have both that's the point, for every few getting jailed many more get away scott free the's one or the other finance has been operating like that for years now, they'd take a fine anyday as it means nothing to them. 40m CHF to the biggest bank in the world whose worth can total to £400bn, yeah sure that will show them considering they make more then that fine within weeks, ask yourself this who is the fine being paid to, no infact I tell you the same groups who the banks control the flow of money for so the fine instantly flows back to the banks. If you want to know how much power a bank has over you right now just look at the recessions, it was triggered by them messing about, look up the strategy know as the greater fool, this was used by some institutes with the mortgages in anticipation of some kind of recession.

If there's no proof that "many" are getting away with it then that's the end of it ... 

There's also a big difference between "money laundering" and "tax avoidance". "Tax evasion" is the equivalent to money laundering but most businesses do the latter by sending their profits to "tax shelters" and that is perfectly legal in theory ... 

Wyrdness said:

Salaries are nothing, what goes into your bank is going to go back into the system unless you are one of the top earners it's one of the biggest illusions around, if you think companies pay out of the good of their heart and the law has no bearing you're kidding yourself as the law is why you're getting paid. Why do you think minimum wage exists in many countries if companies cared? Why do you think a lot of your own US products are made in counties like China by ultra cheap labour instead of providing jobs back home? Why do you think the are things like Unions for different industries? The law stepped in to make sure people are paid a fair amount and clamped down on exploitation otherwise you'd be doing your work for free if left up to companies, look up history business has never cared for the people and workers, all that matters are their own pockets. Companies don't pay what they think you're worth that's you dreaming they pay what the rate of what the role is again this was all the doing of the laws and Unions.

Sounds exactly like what a freeloader would say ... 

If they truly thought that why wouldn't businesses just pay those high wage jobs minimum wages instead ?

Wyrdness said:

18% of what exactly, that doesn't tell us anything, most of the money was going to offshores like what the US companies do so they're gaining 18% of depleted funds that shrunk more and more by the day, it's not the perecentage it's what the percentage is of not to mention factors like the currency they were using before the switch to Euro. and many offshore users who don't even declare their money so that 18% doesn't mean anything if it's coming from the bare minimum and doesn't cover the country's standard of living.

Of their total income! Greece has experienced GDP growth from 1994 to 2007 for consecutively 13 years so the excuse of tax avoidance doesn't apply ...

Their taxation system is the LAST thing I would accuse. There's many other issues that takes precedence over that such as government spending budgets, continous trade deficits, and misrepresentation of their debt ...

Maybe Greece ought to be paying back that debt instead of keeping up their living standards ... 

Despite increasing their tax to GDP ratio, Greece ended up being an unmitigated mess ... 



Nettles said:
Jimbo1337 said:

So why is Bernie Sanders raising taxes on the middle class?  

Yup, I'd go so far to say the problem doesn't even lie with high income earners earning 250,000 to 10 million a year.The problem is with the .1 of the top 1%.The billionaires.Rich enough for the best lawyers and accountants.

 

How much tax does Google pay in the USA? Ditto Apple.Mega corporations based in Ireland or other low company tax regions for the sole purpose of avoiding tax.Go after these guys before slugging low and middle earners more.

That is ironic because that is the very first point adressed in my link. Bernie seems like pretty much the only one interested in closing the tax loopholes...