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Forums - PC Discussion - Starcraft II devs revert only good change since the original game

Nettles said:
Kagerow said:
ohmylanta1003 said:
Kagerow said:


Ironically, Korean SC2 community is positively furious over Blizzard bringing back the Macro. From Code S to Bronze, they all want it gone. Completely Gone.

And I agree, just as they said - Macro element in strategy game is a design error. Not only it makes an arbitary difficulty cliff that stops new player deadhalt, but it also stops many aging professionals from continue developing new strategy as it tilts game's focus into base management, not grand strategy.

Considering that SC2's action ends even faster than SC1's, Macro pushed already borderline boring game to even worse state, combined with increasing demand of unit micro control.

Though, even if they fix this problem now, It is too late for Starcraft franchise to make a huge comeback in E-sport scene...


No macro = not StarCraft. This is not LOL, DOTA, or WarCraft. Macro is a part of the game and it needs to stay that way. I honestly don't know how you can possibly complain about this...

 

Even without Chrono Boost and their friend removed, you still need to build and order your building to create unit, upgrade your unit and so on.

APM spaces left by removing Macro can be used to Micro control units (As number of Magic unit increases) and executing small scale tactics. It is always more interesting to see people doing something rather than just building up Army.

I'm more so amused to see people keep insisting that Macro is vital part of any real time strategy game. I'm partially glad that most Korean can't read western forum, since that would start a keyboard war over this issue.

Yeah look, i dunno if you ever played BW but it's self explanatory.It is easier to create units if you can select 5 hatcheries at a time instead of having to click each hatchery individually to make the units.Using this "Freed up" APM to micro units more is a good idea in theory but in practice - SC2 units are less micro intensive than SC1 units.Reaver popping, stop/hold lurker, marine dance vs lurker.Look at units like Thor or a lesser extent colossus - hardly made for intense micro.SC1 has no comparable units to thor or colossus.You could argue that stalkers require more micro than goons but even then PVT in BW was highly tactical when it came to breaking tank/mine vulture/turret lines.And generally yes, macro is the most important part of an RTS.

I don't understand your statement about 'Less Micro Intensive', if someone wants more value from their unit, they will find a way to do it if it worth to do so.

I will agree on that some level of Macro is important. But Chrono Boost and their friend's existance sorely contributes to APM requirement increase and nothing else. Players who would have tried for more small scale tactics correctly abandons the concept of it as soon as they realize spending more focus on Micro control and tactics is less valuable than keeping up with same Macro over and over again.

This ultimately prohibits physically less capable, but more intelligent or experienced player from continuing. Broodwar also had this problem, and I was momentarily happy that Blizzard will remove this cap and introduce more strategy in strategy game, a sentiment that got shattered when I tried Wings of Liberty Beta. SCII is complex with Macro or without Macro, there is no cap in mind game.

You know what. If that is approarch western prefers. I think I'm fine with it. Despite for my dislike for MOBA, I don't see the problem of Korean finally leaving Starcraft in the history. They need to understand Blizzard isn't going to care about Korean pros and commentator's opinion about game at all. Why would they? They would be happy to get rid of Korean audience who don't really buy the games anymore but dominating the tournament, ultimately causing animosity among western pro supporters.

Ultimately, my prediction is that Blizzard won't ever remove Macro. It just takes too much time and effort to rebalance the whole game without Macro when Starcraft 2 isn't creating enough interest in E-sports community. Good thing too, since Korean community is taking this matter extra hard then they should. This will effectively decrease overall support of SC2 in South Korea.

Well. Opinions are opinions. I stopped playing Starcraft completely after announcement of HotS anyway, so you do have better position to argue against my claim.



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XanderXT said:
Ruler said:

This is why i dont buy blizzard games anymore and dont play starcraft. Blizz doesnt even know what they want, the constant changes and why we even needed 3 starcraft 2s in the first place? it seperated the community, sc2 is pretty much dead now.

I much rather play bloodnorne over diablo 3 or starcraft 2 both broken games

What does Bloodbourne have to do with this? Oh right, nothing, you just wanted to mention it for no reason.

Its actually comperable to diablo like the chalice dungeons which is the same concept like diablo



Kagerow said:
Nettles said:
Kagerow said:
ohmylanta1003 said:
Kagerow said:


Ironically, Korean SC2 community is positively furious over Blizzard bringing back the Macro. From Code S to Bronze, they all want it gone. Completely Gone.

And I agree, just as they said - Macro element in strategy game is a design error. Not only it makes an arbitary difficulty cliff that stops new player deadhalt, but it also stops many aging professionals from continue developing new strategy as it tilts game's focus into base management, not grand strategy.

Considering that SC2's action ends even faster than SC1's, Macro pushed already borderline boring game to even worse state, combined with increasing demand of unit micro control.

Though, even if they fix this problem now, It is too late for Starcraft franchise to make a huge comeback in E-sport scene...


No macro = not StarCraft. This is not LOL, DOTA, or WarCraft. Macro is a part of the game and it needs to stay that way. I honestly don't know how you can possibly complain about this...

 

Even without Chrono Boost and their friend removed, you still need to build and order your building to create unit, upgrade your unit and so on.

APM spaces left by removing Macro can be used to Micro control units (As number of Magic unit increases) and executing small scale tactics. It is always more interesting to see people doing something rather than just building up Army.

I'm more so amused to see people keep insisting that Macro is vital part of any real time strategy game. I'm partially glad that most Korean can't read western forum, since that would start a keyboard war over this issue.

Yeah look, i dunno if you ever played BW but it's self explanatory.It is easier to create units if you can select 5 hatcheries at a time instead of having to click each hatchery individually to make the units.Using this "Freed up" APM to micro units more is a good idea in theory but in practice - SC2 units are less micro intensive than SC1 units.Reaver popping, stop/hold lurker, marine dance vs lurker.Look at units like Thor or a lesser extent colossus - hardly made for intense micro.SC1 has no comparable units to thor or colossus.You could argue that stalkers require more micro than goons but even then PVT in BW was highly tactical when it came to breaking tank/mine vulture/turret lines.And generally yes, macro is the most important part of an RTS.

I don't understand your statement about 'Less Micro Intensive', if someone wants more value from their unit, they will find a way to do it if it worth to do so.

I will agree on that some level of Macro is important. But Chrono Boost and their friend's existance sorely contributes to APM requirement increase and nothing else. Players who would have tried for more small scale tactics correctly abandons the concept of it as soon as they realize spending more focus on Micro control and tactics is less valuable than keeping up with same Macro over and over again.

This ultimately prohibits physically less capable, but more intelligent or experienced player from continuing. Broodwar also had this problem, and I was momentarily happy that Blizzard will remove this cap and introduce more strategy in strategy game, a sentiment that got shattered when I tried Wings of Liberty Beta. SCII is complex with Macro or without Macro, there is no cap in mind game.

You know what. If that is approarch western prefers. I think I'm fine with it. Despite for my dislike for MOBA, I don't see the problem of Korean finally leaving Starcraft in the history. They need to understand Blizzard isn't going to care about Korean pros and commentator's opinion about game at all. Why would they? They would be happy to get rid of Korean audience who don't really buy the games anymore but dominating the tournament, ultimately causing animosity among western pro supporters.

Ultimately, my prediction is that Blizzard won't ever remove Macro. It just takes too much time and effort to rebalance the whole game without Macro when Starcraft 2 isn't creating enough interest in E-sports community. Good thing too, since Korean community is taking this matter extra hard then they should. This will effectively decrease overall support of SC2 in South Korea.

Well. Opinions are opinions. I stopped playing Starcraft completely after announcement of HotS anyway, so you do have better position to argue against my claim.

You're posts are some of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. No one in the entire fucking world is asking Blizzard to COMPLETELY ELIMINATE MACRO. That's where most of the strategy of the Real Time Strategy game takes place and the top players in the world have plenty of APM to micro their units in the stupid crowd pleasing way you keep talking about. Whatever the case, I don't know where you're getting this bullshit information that Koreans want macro removed from the game, but you and I both know that that simply isn't true. Don't make shit up please. Come with valid points to an argument instead of trying to defend everything you say with "that's what the Koreans want". Uh. No they fucking don't. Anyway, if you don't like or can't macro, please stop posting in this thread, because StarCraft will NEVER eliminate macro and that's a damn fact.



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

Kagerow said:
ohmylanta1003 said:
Kagerow said:


Ironically, Korean SC2 community is positively furious over Blizzard bringing back the Macro. From Code S to Bronze, they all want it gone. Completely Gone.

And I agree, just as they said - Macro element in strategy game is a design error. Not only it makes an arbitary difficulty cliff that stops new player deadhalt, but it also stops many aging professionals from continue developing new strategy as it tilts game's focus into base management, not grand strategy.

Considering that SC2's action ends even faster than SC1's, Macro pushed already borderline boring game to even worse state, combined with increasing demand of unit micro control.

Though, even if they fix this problem now, It is too late for Starcraft franchise to make a huge comeback in E-sport scene...


No macro = not StarCraft. This is not LOL, DOTA, or WarCraft. Macro is a part of the game and it needs to stay that way. I honestly don't know how you can possibly complain about this...

 

Even without Chrono Boost and their friend removed, you still need to build and order your building to create unit, upgrade your unit and so on.

APM spaces left by removing Macro can be used to Micro control units (As number of Magic unit increases) and executing small scale tactics. It is always more interesting to see people doing something rather than just building up Army.

I'm more so amused to see people keep insisting that Macro is vital part of any real time strategy game. I'm partially glad that most Korean can't read western forum, since that would start a keyboard war over this issue.


And as I said in my other lost, the real strategy comes from the macro, not the micro. Stop bringing up the Koreans, because we all know that you are talking out of your butthole. It seems that you're incredibly misinformed about this whole topic. I feel that you should read up on it before you respond again, because your arguments don't have any backbone to them.



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

Ruler said:

This is why i dont buy blizzard games anymore and dont play starcraft. Blizz doesnt even know what they want, the constant changes and why we even needed 3 starcraft 2s in the first place? it seperated the community, sc2 is pretty much dead now.

I much rather play bloodnorne over diablo 3 or starcraft 2 both broken games


Lol. How the fuck is StarCraft 2 "broken"?



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

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ohmylanta1003 said:
Ruler said:

This is why i dont buy blizzard games anymore and dont play starcraft. Blizz doesnt even know what they want, the constant changes and why we even needed 3 starcraft 2s in the first place? it seperated the community, sc2 is pretty much dead now.

I much rather play bloodnorne over diablo 3 or starcraft 2 both broken games


Lol. How the fuck is StarCraft 2 "broken"?

The balance is



Ruler said:
ohmylanta1003 said:


Lol. How the fuck is StarCraft 2 "broken"?

The balance is


StarCraft is one of the best balanced games in all of gaming.



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

ohmylanta1003 said:
Ruler said:

The balance is


StarCraft is one of the best balanced games in all of gaming.

not 2



Ruler said:
ohmylanta1003 said:


StarCraft is one of the best balanced games in all of gaming.

not 2


HOTS is considered basically perfect in terms of balance. This isn't even an argument. StarCraft 2 has scary good balance.



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

ohmylanta1003 said:
Kagerow said:
Nettles said:
Kagerow said:
ohmylanta1003 said:
Kagerow said:


Ironically, Korean SC2 community is positively furious over Blizzard bringing back the Macro. From Code S to Bronze, they all want it gone. Completely Gone.

And I agree, just as they said - Macro element in strategy game is a design error. Not only it makes an arbitary difficulty cliff that stops new player deadhalt, but it also stops many aging professionals from continue developing new strategy as it tilts game's focus into base management, not grand strategy.

Considering that SC2's action ends even faster than SC1's, Macro pushed already borderline boring game to even worse state, combined with increasing demand of unit micro control.

Though, even if they fix this problem now, It is too late for Starcraft franchise to make a huge comeback in E-sport scene...


No macro = not StarCraft. This is not LOL, DOTA, or WarCraft. Macro is a part of the game and it needs to stay that way. I honestly don't know how you can possibly complain about this...

 

Even without Chrono Boost and their friend removed, you still need to build and order your building to create unit, upgrade your unit and so on.

APM spaces left by removing Macro can be used to Micro control units (As number of Magic unit increases) and executing small scale tactics. It is always more interesting to see people doing something rather than just building up Army.

I'm more so amused to see people keep insisting that Macro is vital part of any real time strategy game. I'm partially glad that most Korean can't read western forum, since that would start a keyboard war over this issue.

Yeah look, i dunno if you ever played BW but it's self explanatory.It is easier to create units if you can select 5 hatcheries at a time instead of having to click each hatchery individually to make the units.Using this "Freed up" APM to micro units more is a good idea in theory but in practice - SC2 units are less micro intensive than SC1 units.Reaver popping, stop/hold lurker, marine dance vs lurker.Look at units like Thor or a lesser extent colossus - hardly made for intense micro.SC1 has no comparable units to thor or colossus.You could argue that stalkers require more micro than goons but even then PVT in BW was highly tactical when it came to breaking tank/mine vulture/turret lines.And generally yes, macro is the most important part of an RTS.

I don't understand your statement about 'Less Micro Intensive', if someone wants more value from their unit, they will find a way to do it if it worth to do so.

I will agree on that some level of Macro is important. But Chrono Boost and their friend's existance sorely contributes to APM requirement increase and nothing else. Players who would have tried for more small scale tactics correctly abandons the concept of it as soon as they realize spending more focus on Micro control and tactics is less valuable than keeping up with same Macro over and over again.

This ultimately prohibits physically less capable, but more intelligent or experienced player from continuing. Broodwar also had this problem, and I was momentarily happy that Blizzard will remove this cap and introduce more strategy in strategy game, a sentiment that got shattered when I tried Wings of Liberty Beta. SCII is complex with Macro or without Macro, there is no cap in mind game.

You know what. If that is approarch western prefers. I think I'm fine with it. Despite for my dislike for MOBA, I don't see the problem of Korean finally leaving Starcraft in the history. They need to understand Blizzard isn't going to care about Korean pros and commentator's opinion about game at all. Why would they? They would be happy to get rid of Korean audience who don't really buy the games anymore but dominating the tournament, ultimately causing animosity among western pro supporters.

Ultimately, my prediction is that Blizzard won't ever remove Macro. It just takes too much time and effort to rebalance the whole game without Macro when Starcraft 2 isn't creating enough interest in E-sports community. Good thing too, since Korean community is taking this matter extra hard then they should. This will effectively decrease overall support of SC2 in South Korea.

Well. Opinions are opinions. I stopped playing Starcraft completely after announcement of HotS anyway, so you do have better position to argue against my claim.

You're posts are some of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. No one in the entire fucking world is asking Blizzard to COMPLETELY ELIMINATE MACRO. That's where most of the strategy of the Real Time Strategy game takes place and the top players in the world have plenty of APM to micro their units in the stupid crowd pleasing way you keep talking about. Whatever the case, I don't know where you're getting this bullshit information that Koreans want macro removed from the game, but you and I both know that that simply isn't true. Don't make shit up please. Come with valid points to an argument instead of trying to defend everything you say with "that's what the Koreans want". Uh. No they fucking don't. Anyway, if you don't like or can't macro, please stop posting in this thread, because StarCraft will NEVER eliminate macro and that's a damn fact.


you guys should get your language right... the changes arent about macro, they are abot removing(or not removing) micro heavy macro parts, aka the stupid parts that make the game slower because you have to pay more attention to your production(aka base). that takes away attention from the enemy, and makes player less aggressiv. 

a game without those micro elements inside the "base" is BETTER,  because it swifts the gameplay more to pvp interactions and away from farmville in space.  there isnt much skill involved inside those basemicro elements.  

and those elements take away win chances from macro heavy playstyles.