By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Greece Defaults. What now?

nanarchy said:
Player2 said:
mai said:

 

You've assumed wrong, but in retrpospect if every S-curve of exponential growth, stagnation and inevitable decline has to be replaced by another S-curve of growth I can't see better option than nuclear for the system as a whole, the fact that Iceland will be powered by geothermal energy won't make live of average Joe somewhere else any better.


You = Europe in general, I'm not taking into account some region-specific details.

It seems that all the traditional spanish energy companies disagree with you, otherwise they wouldn't have lobbied the government to tax the sun. Getting paid for the days their combined cycle plants just sit there doing nothing seems to not be enough for them.

wasn't that due to spain having massive solar deployments due to really badly done subsidies that resulted in power generation costs not being covered by the sales of that power? hence the need to raise revenue from the solar sector that had been massively subsidised.

Nope. Energy companies in Spain have been making record profits for a long time. The "costs not being covered" is a lie because energy companies inflate generation costs as there's no control over it. If you sell your product below its true generation cost you don't make a profit.

The consequence of the terribly planned subsidies (companies getting paid per mw/h from renewable sources) were that some companies abused it and tried to pass energy produced from fossil fuel as renewable energy to make even more money. We even had sun plants producing energy at night.

 

This new tax isn't only against the renewable sector. It's against the guy who want some independence from Endesa & co so you can't escape from them. Basically if you generate your own electricity from a renewable source and you're connected to the power grid you have to pay for the energy you produce.



Around the Network
Player2 said:

 

Nope. Energy companies in Spain have been making record profits for a long time. The "costs not being covered" is a lie because energy companies inflate generation costs as there's no control over it. If you sell your product below its true generation cost you don't make a profit.

The consequence of the terribly planned subsidies (companies getting paid per mw/h from renewable sources) were that some companies abused it and tried to pass energy produced from fossil fuel as renewable energy to make even more money. We even had sun plants producing energy at night.

 

This new tax isn't only against the renewable sector. It's against the guy who want some independence from Endesa & co so you can't escape from them. Basically if you generate your own electricity from a renewable source and you're connected to the power grid you have to pay for the energy you produce.

of course you should be paying something if your connected to the grid, maintaining grid infrastructure isn't free even if you never pull a single drop of power from it, it still costs thousands to provide that backup. The problem with solar is unless you are completely self sufficient (off grid), it actually still has much of the same infrastructure costs as if you had no solar at all, this is heavily exacerbated when governments mindlessly subsidise its installation without thinking about the consequences.



nanarchy said:
Player2 said:

 

Nope. Energy companies in Spain have been making record profits for a long time. The "costs not being covered" is a lie because energy companies inflate generation costs as there's no control over it. If you sell your product below its true generation cost you don't make a profit.

The consequence of the terribly planned subsidies (companies getting paid per mw/h from renewable sources) were that some companies abused it and tried to pass energy produced from fossil fuel as renewable energy to make even more money. We even had sun plants producing energy at night.

 

This new tax isn't only against the renewable sector. It's against the guy who want some independence from Endesa & co so you can't escape from them. Basically if you generate your own electricity from a renewable source and you're connected to the power grid you have to pay for the energy you produce.

of course you should be paying something if your connected to the grid, maintaining grid infrastructure isn't free even if you never pull a single drop of power from it, it still costs thousands to provide that backup. The problem with solar is unless you are completely self sufficient (off grid), it actually still has much of the same infrastructure costs as if you had no solar at all, this is heavily exacerbated when governments mindlessly subsidise its installation without thinking about the consequences.

Grid mainteinment is a fixed separate term in spanish electric bills (maybe it's different in other places) so that was covered already. The difference is that now you pay for the energy you produce by yourself.



mai said:
Teeqoz said:


I fail to see how it's a bad thing that European countries are using less energy.... Improving efficieny of energy consuming actions is only a good thing.....

Cars use less fuel, planes use less fuel, household appliances use less power etc. How does this support your argument?...

Improving energy efficiency is all fine and dandy, but declining energy consumption is a sign of dying system. In _healthy_ systems energy freed by improving efficiency goes to other task, therefore gross energy consumption stays the same or growing. But do not worry, you're not alone here, that's worldwide trend more or less. Renewables as the form of new energy source is ultimately a dead end, in fact even what we have now in that field was to a great extent made possible by low oil energy costs assossiated with the full cycle from production to utilization. No cheap oil = no renewabels as a substantial source of energy. That's how human kind rolls, a neverending battle for increasing energy flow per capita. The task of a new source of energy aside from increasing the resource base is to dramatically increase that energy flow therefore ultimately change the quality of civilization. Natually renewables in that context are hardly an answer to our needs, and as much as non-convential oils, are merely delaying the inevitable, the decline. So do they worth investment? No.

what ther tasks? shuld i buy another car just because my car needs 4l/100km and not 10 like 10 years ago? should i by another fridge because my new one just needs half the energie the old one needed?

100$/b is still cheap oil if your car just needs 4l/100km...  

 

you should better look at food and water. those are far bigger problems in the future.



Player2 said:
nanarchy said:
Player2 said:

 

Nope. Energy companies in Spain have been making record profits for a long time. The "costs not being covered" is a lie because energy companies inflate generation costs as there's no control over it. If you sell your product below its true generation cost you don't make a profit.

The consequence of the terribly planned subsidies (companies getting paid per mw/h from renewable sources) were that some companies abused it and tried to pass energy produced from fossil fuel as renewable energy to make even more money. We even had sun plants producing energy at night.

 

This new tax isn't only against the renewable sector. It's against the guy who want some independence from Endesa & co so you can't escape from them. Basically if you generate your own electricity from a renewable source and you're connected to the power grid you have to pay for the energy you produce.

of course you should be paying something if your connected to the grid, maintaining grid infrastructure isn't free even if you never pull a single drop of power from it, it still costs thousands to provide that backup. The problem with solar is unless you are completely self sufficient (off grid), it actually still has much of the same infrastructure costs as if you had no solar at all, this is heavily exacerbated when governments mindlessly subsidise its installation without thinking about the consequences.

Grid mainteinment is a fixed separate term in spanish electric bills (maybe it's different in other places) so that was covered already. The difference is that now you pay for the energy you produce by yourself.

my mistake then, if they are already charging you hundreds of Euro's a year when connected to cover that then it is a little harsh to tax on top.



Around the Network

[DELETED]



Psychotic said:
routsounmanman said:


The media in your country must be good. They are probably high-fiving each other now.


Our World Press Freedom Rank: HIGHEST
Compared to the World: 13th place out of 180

Greek World Press Freedom Rank: ORANGE (3rd worst possible)
Compared to the World: 91st place out of 180

I don't wanna be rude, but maybe you would do yourself a favor if you believed my country's media over yours, mate.

Are you mixing up 'free' with 'true'? There is more plurality of opinion in countries higher up on the index, and less government interference. But that is all this is saying: It is not an indicator of how accurately, or truthfully, citizens are being informed. Just because media is more free, it is not necessarily the case that it is better media.

At the end of the day, what matters the most is what kind of media people listen to. If, for example, you have plenty of objective media outlets, but most people decide to be 'informed' via Fox News, then they will not be receiving objectively fair or accurate news, regardless how free the media in overall are.

One of the main reasons the Greek index is so low, is exactly because of media corruption. During the last 5 months, and especially in the weeks up to and after the referendum, the vast majority of TV channels -- run by rich supporters of the prior two big parties (ND, PASOK) -- continuously bombarded the people with inaccurate and terrorizing information regarding the meaning of the referendum, the potential outcome, and the anticipated results in Greek economy and society. The people were continuously being told to vote 'YES', as otherwise this would result in 'Grexit'. 

Despite all media propaganda, and there were tons of it, Greeks voted 'NO' regardless -- and guess what? 'Grexit' has yet to occur.

And it will not, because economics may be one aspect of the coin, but politics is always the other.



generic-user-1 said:

what ther tasks? shuld i buy another car just because my car needs 4l/100km and not 10 like 10 years ago? should i by another fridge because my new one just needs half the energie the old one needed?

100$/b is still cheap oil if your car just needs 4l/100km...  

 

you should better look at food and water. those are far bigger problems in the future.

Building infrastructure first and foremost instead of wasting it on rampart consumerism, and therefore essentially wasting your future. Food and water are functions of energy availability, so I have those covered.



mai said:
generic-user-1 said:

what ther tasks? shuld i buy another car just because my car needs 4l/100km and not 10 like 10 years ago? should i by another fridge because my new one just needs half the energie the old one needed?

100$/b is still cheap oil if your car just needs 4l/100km...  

 

you should better look at food and water. those are far bigger problems in the future.

Building infrastructure first and foremost instead of wasting it on rampart consumerism, and therefore essentially wasting your future. Food and water are functions of energy availability, so I have those covered.

but we allready have the best roads in the world.  no other country lets you drive with good speed on the roads because they know their roads suck.  could you imagine driving 240km/h(150mph) on a highway or a road in russia? and sure public transportation could be a bit better, but its allready good.  and if we improve such things we will need less energie.    there is just no way europe can consume more energie, we all have fridges and cars, and we cant buy a 2nd and 3rd fridge just because the 1st one consumes so little energie. there is just no need.   

and water isnt a function of energie. it comes for free out of the sky, no need for energie as long as you dont life in a desert.



generic-user-1 said:
mai said:
generic-user-1 said:

what ther tasks? shuld i buy another car just because my car needs 4l/100km and not 10 like 10 years ago? should i by another fridge because my new one just needs half the energie the old one needed?

100$/b is still cheap oil if your car just needs 4l/100km...  

 

you should better look at food and water. those are far bigger problems in the future.

Building infrastructure first and foremost instead of wasting it on rampart consumerism, and therefore essentially wasting your future. Food and water are functions of energy availability, so I have those covered.

but we allready have the best roads in the world.  no other country lets you drive with good speed on the roads because they know their roads suck.  could you imagine driving 240km/h(150mph) on a highway or a road in russia? and sure public transportation could be a bit better, but its allready good.  and if we improve such things we will need less energie.    there is just no way europe can consume more energie, we all have fridges and cars, and we cant buy a 2nd and 3rd fridge just because the 1st one consumes so little energie. there is just no need.   

and water isnt a function of energie. it comes for free out of the sky, no need for energie as long as you dont life in a desert.


Not sure if you are missing fundamental bits of science, but to clarify a couple of things:

1. Modern fridges consume less energy -- the proliferation of devices that consume energy however offsets any such benefits. Overall, we use more energy now than before, despite more effective consumption of energy per device.

2. The water cycle is fundamentally related to energy -- in this case the energy of the sun and the average temperature which affects the rate of evaporation.