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Forums - General Discussion - The Religious Argument Thread!

bouzane said:

Nintentacle said:

There is burden of proof on both sides; No piece of evidence can indefinitely prove that God does or doesn't exist.

Although, I don't understand the Big Bang, it doesn't make sense to me. How can nothing, at all, exist, and the Big Bang happen? Because if something existed before the Universe, than that was a part of the Universe, because the Universe contains everything that existed. Wouldn't it make more sense to say the Universe always existed (In the sense of time), and the Earth, Sun, Moon, etc. were formed over the course of billions of years? That's what I would say if I were an atheist.


No, it is not, it is always on the party that makes the claim. You need to prove that something exists, not the other way around. If it was the other way around you would need to prove that leprechauns don't exist.

The thing about the Big Bang is that all of the evidence that we have supports the theory, we have actual proof to back up our assertions. It is still a theory for the same reason that our understanding of gravity is still theoretical, we need to be 100% certain about every aspect of the theory before it becomes scientific fact. Until that day in the distant future we will continue to teach it as a principle because the scientific community knows that it is correct, just not every single last detail.

That being said, if god needed to exist in order to create the Universe, why does nothing need to exist before god in order to create it? This god character does not explain anything without raising further questions. Additionally, there is literally zero evidence to support the existence of god, therefore I remain an atheist.

Yes, there is. There is no way that I can prove, 100%, that a God exist, and vise versa. The neutral position would be that you don't think there is a God personally, but you think there is a possibilty of one existing, or the other way around.

Because God is an eternal being, which is why if I were an Atheist, I would assume that the Universe always existed, because there was nothing that existed to cause the Big Bang. Which I think would actually make sense from an atheistic view-point, because people believe something caused the Big Bang, which would imply that something existed before it, meaning the something (I.E. the Universe) existed before the Big Bang, but not the planets, stars, etc. at the time. 

In other words, there had to be something there to create the Universe, and depending on your views, it is either a God or something unknown (But technically one could say God created the unknown thing, but that doesn't really help the argument in any way)



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Nighthawk117 said:

Nintentacle said:

Most people wind up in hell (Matthew 7:13-14). You can't base your opinion on if everyone went to Heaven, because it says few (Probably still in the millions/billions area, but Hell would outnumber it by a lot) actually go to Heaven

People that are addicted to porn, sex (In some cases), and/or drugs when they die probably won't go to Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9)

It would be considered retrictions for the people that end up in Heaven, it would be "Now I can live eternity with ever doing those things again, along with peace.". They aren't slaves because they willingly do it.

In other words:

The people that think of Heaven (A place of eternal peace), resticting won't go there in the first place, because they want to live in a sinful lifestyle.


Ok, I'll play along with your line of reasoning...

I'm not addicted to anything.  It would be nice to be able to have some fun in heaven.  For instance,  no porn - let me watch the Victoria Secret fashion show.  No drugs - let me smoke a cigar.  No booze either - gimme a Sharp's then.  No sex with strangers - let me bang my girlfriend/ wife.  Now, am I still a sinner?

Furthur, everybody sins at least a little throughout their lives.  That's what confession is for - to be absolved of your sins.   That's what last rites are also for.  Are you telling me those two key tenets, of at least Catholicism, are not valid? 

My primary point is that you cannot have free will in heaven,  and thus, without free will you are someone's slave, to put it bluntly.

To make it quick, basically, since the people chose to obey God on Earth, they get rewarded in Heaven, where they can continue to do it. He isn't forcing it on them because they want to obey him.



Nintentacle said:
Nighthawk117 said:

Nintentacle said:

Most people wind up in hell (Matthew 7:13-14). You can't base your opinion on if everyone went to Heaven, because it says few (Probably still in the millions/billions area, but Hell would outnumber it by a lot) actually go to Heaven

People that are addicted to porn, sex (In some cases), and/or drugs when they die probably won't go to Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9)

It would be considered retrictions for the people that end up in Heaven, it would be "Now I can live eternity with ever doing those things again, along with peace.". They aren't slaves because they willingly do it.

In other words:

The people that think of Heaven (A place of eternal peace), resticting won't go there in the first place, because they want to live in a sinful lifestyle.


Ok, I'll play along with your line of reasoning...

I'm not addicted to anything.  It would be nice to be able to have some fun in heaven.  For instance,  no porn - let me watch the Victoria Secret fashion show.  No drugs - let me smoke a cigar.  No booze either - gimme a Sharp's then.  No sex with strangers - let me bang my girlfriend/ wife.  Now, am I still a sinner?

Furthur, everybody sins at least a little throughout their lives.  That's what confession is for - to be absolved of your sins.   That's what last rites are also for.  Are you telling me those two key tenets, of at least Catholicism, are not valid? 

My primary point is that you cannot have free will in heaven,  and thus, without free will you are someone's slave, to put it bluntly.

To make it quick, basically, since the people chose to obey God on Earth, they get rewarded in Heaven, where they can continue to do it. He isn't forcing it on them because they want to obey him.

Your missing my point: There are a lot of good people on this planet, my mother is among those.  However,  my point stands.  God doesn't force anything upon us in our earthly lives.  Why should heaven be any different?  No one is the perfect believer in God.  Even my mother has sinned in her life. 

Hell, I obey God's commandments as good as anybody I know.  When I screw up, I go to confession, like every other good Christian.  However, the fact remains that I want to have fun in Heaven, like everybody else, and without free will, I cannot enjoy life anywhere, whether on this planet or in the afterlife.



Nighthawk117 said:

Nintentacle said:

To make it quick, basically, since the people chose to obey God on Earth, they get rewarded in Heaven, where they can continue to do it. He isn't forcing it on them because they want to obey him.

Your missing my point: There are a lot of good people on this planet, my mother is among those.  However,  my point stands.  God doesn't force anything upon us in our earthly lives.  Why should heaven be any different?  No one is the perfect believer in God.  Even my mother has sinned in her life. 

Hell, I obey God's commandments as good as anybody I know.  When I screw up, I go to confession, like every other good Christian.  However, the fact remains that I want to have fun in Heaven, like everybody else, and without free will, I cannot enjoy life anywhere, whether on this planet or in the afterlife.

But, the people in Heaven don't want to do most of the things you listed, which is freedom for them. That's my point.



Nintentacle said:
Nighthawk117 said:

Nintentacle said:

To make it quick, basically, since the people chose to obey God on Earth, they get rewarded in Heaven, where they can continue to do it. He isn't forcing it on them because they want to obey him.

Your missing my point: There are a lot of good people on this planet, my mother is among those.  However,  my point stands.  God doesn't force anything upon us in our earthly lives.  Why should heaven be any different?  No one is the perfect believer in God.  Even my mother has sinned in her life. 

Hell, I obey God's commandments as good as anybody I know.  When I screw up, I go to confession, like every other good Christian.  However, the fact remains that I want to have fun in Heaven, like everybody else, and without free will, I cannot enjoy life anywhere, whether on this planet or in the afterlife.

But, the people in Heaven don't want to do most of the things you listed, which is freedom for them. That's my point.


Then, in your opinion, what do they want to do in heaven for the rest of eternity?  Bottom line, do they have free will?  Can they think for themselves and act out of the box.. i.e. can they go crazy for at least a few milliseconds here or there?



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Nighthawk117 said:

Then, in your opinion, what do they want to do in heaven for the rest of eternity?  Bottom line, do they have free will?  Can they think for themselves and act out of the box.. i.e. can they go crazy for at least a few milliseconds here or there?

Well, I have no way of knowing the answer.