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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is Socialism Anti-American?

 

Is it?

Yes 85 28.72%
 
NO 183 61.82%
 
Opinion below 8 2.70%
 
other 13 4.39%
 
Total:289

Well to me America's economic model/system like its ethnic identity is a bit of a patchwork with the free market being the foundation, and the rest being a mixture of crony capitalism, socialism with just a sprinkling of communism and Marxism among others. So in actuality socialism by that definition is very American #meltingpot



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prayformojo said:
Marks said:
prayformojo said:
No, but the "patriots" er...elite capitalistic pigs who believe in hoarding 90% of the resources for themselves while bleeding,starving and enslaving the poor will tell you otherwise.

 

You sound like the type of guy that supports high business taxes, and union rights...then wonders why all the factories are moving to China. 

 

Our country is one built on the old idea that it's "every man for himself." I do not believe that way. I believe we are all in this together as a human race. We should all take care of one another and those who feel otherwise, should be made to treat others with such respect. 

This is so untrue. Americans give more PRIVATE welfare (charity) and help each other more than most of Europe. Ironically, the only other countries in the world that give more are those which have freer economies. Which is a more charitable people, those who do it out of their own free will, or those who do it because they are forced to? 



sc94597 said:
prayformojo said:
Marks said:
prayformojo said:
No, but the "patriots" er...elite capitalistic pigs who believe in hoarding 90% of the resources for themselves while bleeding,starving and enslaving the poor will tell you otherwise.

 

You sound like the type of guy that supports high business taxes, and union rights...then wonders why all the factories are moving to China. 

 

Our country is one built on the old idea that it's "every man for himself." I do not believe that way. I believe we are all in this together as a human race. We should all take care of one another and those who feel otherwise, should be made to treat others with such respect. 

This is so untrue. Americans give more PRIVATE welfare (charity) and help each other more than most of Europe. Ironically, the only other countries in the world that give more are those which have freer economies. Which is a more charitable people, those who do it out of their own free will, or those who do it because they are forced to? 

Much of that private giving just goes to churches, though. Not to say churches don't do good things in their communities, but that is not primarily what they do nor primarily how that money is spent (most of it is just sustaining funds for church activities)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

sc94597 said:

This is so untrue. Americans give more PRIVATE welfare (charity) and help each other more than most of Europe. Ironically, the only other countries in the world that give more are those which have freer economies. Which is a more charitable people, those who do it out of their own free will, or those who do it because they are forced to? 

While it's true that Canada, Australia, New Zealand are Ireland have more economic freedom than the US. (http://www.heritage.org/index/heatmap ) Those countries do have more socialism than the US and they're doing just fine.



BraLoD said:
If you start calling USA as America, you can't expect me to give you an answer.
Because I'm American too, as I live in Brazil, and I don't think our continent is only your country, as it really isn't.
Cuba is part of America too and until some time ago was a socialistic country, and you can't call an American country anti-American.
But even if you are only talking about USA, no, people are free do have their own ideals, and USA is supposed to be a free country, so anti-USA would be judge people for what they believe and try to impose what they have to be.

if you start calling the country you live in as Brazil, and not Federative Republic of Brazil, you cant expect me to respond to you.

You and people like you that so aptly display their ignorance, annoy me. Your arrogance in trying to snidely correct people on a name of a country, is sadly misplaced America is a correct name for the United States of America.

if you are going to try to correct people for using a correct shortened name of a country, you better get the name of your country correct, and better not shorten it.

also its the Republic of Cuba, not Cuba. get it right



 

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Leadified said:
sc94597 said:

This is so untrue. Americans give more PRIVATE welfare (charity) and help each other more than most of Europe. Ironically, the only other countries in the world that give more are those which have freer economies. Which is a more charitable people, those who do it out of their own free will, or those who do it because they are forced to? 

 

While it's true that Canada, Australia, New Zealand are Ireland have more economic freedom than the US. (http://www.heritage.org/index/heatmap ) Those countries do have more socialism than the US and they're doing just fine.

Depends on how you define "more socialist", either way the markets are freer in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Ireland than the U.S. 



Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
prayformojo said:
Marks said:
prayformojo said:
No, but the "patriots" er...elite capitalistic pigs who believe in hoarding 90% of the resources for themselves while bleeding,starving and enslaving the poor will tell you otherwise.

 

You sound like the type of guy that supports high business taxes, and union rights...then wonders why all the factories are moving to China. 

 

Our country is one built on the old idea that it's "every man for himself." I do not believe that way. I believe we are all in this together as a human race. We should all take care of one another and those who feel otherwise, should be made to treat others with such respect. 

This is so untrue. Americans give more PRIVATE welfare (charity) and help each other more than most of Europe. Ironically, the only other countries in the world that give more are those which have freer economies. Which is a more charitable people, those who do it out of their own free will, or those who do it because they are forced to? 

 

Much of that private giving just goes to churches, though. Not to say churches don't do good things in their communities, but that is not primarily what they do nor primarily how that money is spent (most of it is just sustaining funds for church activities)

Actually if you look at OECD's Social Expenditure stats, 

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SOCX_AGG

for the U.S  - Voluntary private:

3.9% GDP on Old Age

.4% GDP Incapacity Related

5.9% Health Related

0% Other

That is 10% of total GDP spent on Old Age, Disabilities, and Health. Let's compare it to say, the UK. 

4.5% GDP on Old Age

.4% GDP on Incapacity

.3% GDP on Health (arguably with public health care there is less of a private need)

.1% GDP on other social policies

With a total of 5.3% 

 

They are quite similar, yet Americans are supposedly evil and greed people who only care about themselves. 



sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

Much of that private giving just goes to churches, though. Not to say churches don't do good things in their communities, but that is not primarily what they do nor primarily how that money is spent (most of it is just sustaining funds for church activities)

Actually if you look at OECD's Social Expenditure stats, 

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SOCX_AGG

for the U.S  - Voluntary private:

3.9% GDP on Old Age

.4% GDP Incapacity Related

5.9% Health Related

0% Other

That is 10% of total GDP spent on Old Age, Disabilities, and Health. Let's compare it to say, the UK. 

4.5% GDP on Old Age

.4% GDP on Incapacity

.3% GDP on Health (arguably with public health care there is less of a private need)

.1% GDP on other social policies

With a total of 5.3% 

 

They are quite similar, yet Americans are supposedly evil and greed people who only care about themselves. 

That's because other countries have coverage for old age, incapacity, and health. They don't feel the need to donate it as we might. That we donate more does not nearly make up for the shortfall in government services.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

sc94597 said:
the2real4mafol said:
Applying anything with the term 'anti-American' (or any nationality) is used by nationalists to control and seek consent from people and stop them questioning anything that is wrong with the current system.

The right have since McCarthy (probably before) seen socialism as 'anti-American' but to be honest does this term mean anything? Not really. Think about the North American land for example, that has always been there but not until 1776 was it ever a country (something that also could be as easily made up) And even then how can people be patriotic about a place where the natives are essentially foreigners in their own lands. You're all descendants of Europeans pretty much.

Back to the topic but still how can socialism be any more 'anti-American' than what you're corporatist governments have done?

Liberty? What liberty in a country with mass spying, wasteful armies and bureaucracies. No liberty for your people, no liberty for the world since you're superpower status.

Life? How so in a country that still practices the death penalty in over half of it's regions? Not to mention all the wars you've your citizens to fight unnecessarily

And Happiness? That depends on perspective. If you define happiness by ignorance, selfishness, greed, overconsumption (the stuff that makes crony capitalism work as it does) as happiness then i'm on a different planet. The right to happiness is certainly denied to the poor that's for sure. A comfortable life is needed for happiness among other things

I don't disagree with the bolded. They're just as much problems that must be dealt with as socialism is. They're the side-effects of another form of collectivism, nationalism. 

How to achieve happiness is for the individual to decide, based on his/her slight variation in his/her nature from others.  There is no objective happiness. That is why having the freedom to not have others impose their views of what happiness is, tends to correlate with a happier population. And no, growing up the poorest kid in the class, I was more happy than many of my middle-class peers, having other things than money to derive happiness from. There might be a correlation, based on materialism being one value some individuals choose to analog with happiness, and of course the slightly greater freedom to become successful, but that doesn't mean being poorer than others => being not as happy as others. Now if we speak of destitution, poverty at which basic sustanence is impossible, yes that is highly correlative with unhappiness, but luckily destitution exists at such a microscopic level in the first world, including the United States. Why? Because of high productivity induced by free-markets. I've grown up poor, known quite many other poor people, not a single one of them grew up hungry, without shelter, or even recreational devices. Why? Because the American poor today have just as much as the American middle-class 30 years ago. Why? Because of productivity, technological progression, the reduction of prices through competition, and the free-market. Sorry, people are becoming richer all around, despite the inequality. 

Yeah definately as if socialism ever replaced capitalism it may solve some problems but it would add some of it's own as its also an imperfect system. That's why I believe in a mixed system to have the best of both

And yeah you can't have a universal application of happiness, it just don't work like that. Although, I can't see how excessive materialism can be great for anyone (except those profit from it). And despite our different views, I am much the same as you. I am fairly poor but i'm comfortable with it as I saved for much of what I wanted. I'm not starving or homeless or anything, so i'm already better off than others.

Except there are no true free markets anymore, the authorities get all pissy if you sell stuff on the street or take in lodgers or anything. All of today's big business most likely started off selling stuff on the street before growing into shops, then national icons etc but that is seemingly discouraged now when compared to before.

Also, if we think of the current system in the US where the biggest companies use (really bribe) the state to rig the market so that stuff like hemp is illegal. I don't know that is considered free but i'm not sure how you balance it because i feel a handful of regulations are necessary like working conditions, working hours, minimum wage and environment etc. But even they hurt small business too so I don't know. All I know is that regulations are over the top right now.    

Also, that's one I hate more than any other about capitalism. Whenever it fails we the poor get hit hardest, never those who caused (the banks) get any trouble for their actions



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Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Much of that private giving just goes to churches, though. Not to say churches don't do good things in their communities, but that is not primarily what they do nor primarily how that money is spent (most of it is just sustaining funds for church activities)

Actually if you look at OECD's Social Expenditure stats, 

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SOCX_AGG

for the U.S  - Voluntary private:

3.9% GDP on Old Age

.4% GDP Incapacity Related

5.9% Health Related

0% Other

That is 10% of total GDP spent on Old Age, Disabilities, and Health. Let's compare it to say, the UK. 

4.5% GDP on Old Age

.4% GDP on Incapacity

.3% GDP on Health (arguably with public health care there is less of a private need)

.1% GDP on other social policies

With a total of 5.3% 

 

They are quite similar, yet Americans are supposedly evil and greed people who only care about themselves. 

That's because other countries have coverage for old age, incapacity, and health. They don't feel the need to donate it as we might. That we donate more does not nearly make up for the shortfall in government services.

And the U.S does not have social security, medicaid, and medicare? According to OECD 15% of social expenditure is Public 10% Voluntary Private and 5% Mandatory private. That adds up to 30% of GDP spent on social expenditure. Comparitively, say Norway, has 30% Public expenditure, and essentially 0-1% of everything else. You can argue efficiencies, but would a national health-care system be as efficient for a diverse population of 300 million as it is for 5 million people of the same ethnic and similar socio-economic background? 

My point was that if Americans didn't want public social expenditure if they were greedy, selfish, and only cared about themselves, then would they also not give to private charity?