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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is Socialism Anti-American?

 

Is it?

Yes 85 28.72%
 
NO 183 61.82%
 
Opinion below 8 2.70%
 
other 13 4.39%
 
Total:289
Dark_Lord_2008 said:
You wrongly judge freedom and happiness is based on how much material possessions people own. It is ironic that people living in wealthy countries have higher rates of depression, suicide rates regardless of how much wealth or material possessions they own in comparison to third world developing island nations. So what is wrong with third world nations and primitive cultures working together as a community instead of being all against each other in a mindless competition for more wealth and more possessions?

I never said anything about material possessions. I've spoken only of productivity. That includes: food, clothing, housing, health-care, science, art, buildings, and material possessions like you know - video games. But if we are to follow the logic presented in this thread, why should you have a right to spend your money on video games when a child in Africa is starving to death? Why not redistribute your wealth and material possessions? 



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spurgeonryan said:
Jizz_Beard_thePirate said:
'Merica!


Please. In my threads only post fully realized thought processes that add up to at least a paragraph or more. I would like detailed Abdllah oblongata thesis's on why you think America can never be a Socialist state.

That would be 'medulla oblongata.'



Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

In addendum, look at what the various socialist policies have done in America and Western Europe. They have checked the excesses of robber-baron style capitalism by helping to enforce minimum living standards across the board. How much has social unrest diminished in America since the New Deal, or how much more stable have Western European societies become since the early 20th century? The "consequentialist" evils of the 20th century were a reaction to the rapaciousness of 19th-century liberalism: the Marxists were those who had always been poor and merely saw the serf-lord replaced by the mill owner as the master of their fate. The Fascists were those small producers who had had some measure of success in the old system, crushed by an unfeeling marketplace against which they could not hope to compete.

Is it these policies or was it natural economic growth and the reduction of scarcity which has reduced civil unrest? Could it be that the United States and Western Europe became so productive after the Great Depression that the populations were never destitute? I don't credit the stability to legislation, but to human innovation and ingenuity reducing prices of necessities. If anything, this progress has existed despite the New Deal, not because of it. Of course, in the short term, the New Deal benefited those it chose to benefit, and repressed any socialist revolution, but in the long-term the story is different. 

Question: Why doesn't there exist rober-baron capitalism in the free-markets of Hong Kong and Singapore? Shouldn't they be riddled with this social unrest and destitution among the poor? 

Because they are small enough societies that they can externalize these public bads in many cases. Hong Kong companies take advantage of cheap Chinese labor, off-loading the dark side of capitalism into their suzerain.

Singapore, meanwhile, sees 60% of GDP generated by a government owned corporation, Tamasek Holdings.

If Hong Kong were a European country it would rank 22 in population. That's more than half of Europe's countries.  Why does China have these same issues that are supposedly brough by capitalism (child labor, economic disparity, sweat shops) when its economy is more democratically regulated than other market-economies? Shouldn't that greater democratic control lead to more egalitarianism? 



sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
Mr Khan said:

In addendum, look at what the various socialist policies have done in America and Western Europe. They have checked the excesses of robber-baron style capitalism by helping to enforce minimum living standards across the board. How much has social unrest diminished in America since the New Deal, or how much more stable have Western European societies become since the early 20th century? The "consequentialist" evils of the 20th century were a reaction to the rapaciousness of 19th-century liberalism: the Marxists were those who had always been poor and merely saw the serf-lord replaced by the mill owner as the master of their fate. The Fascists were those small producers who had had some measure of success in the old system, crushed by an unfeeling marketplace against which they could not hope to compete.

Is it these policies or was it natural economic growth and the reduction of scarcity which has reduced civil unrest? Could it be that the United States and Western Europe became so productive after the Great Depression that the populations were never destitute? I don't credit the stability to legislation, but to human innovation and ingenuity reducing prices of necessities. If anything, this progress has existed despite the New Deal, not because of it. Of course, in the short term, the New Deal benefited those it chose to benefit, and repressed any socialist revolution, but in the long-term the story is different. 

Question: Why doesn't there exist rober-baron capitalism in the free-markets of Hong Kong and Singapore? Shouldn't they be riddled with this social unrest and destitution among the poor? 

Because they are small enough societies that they can externalize these public bads in many cases. Hong Kong companies take advantage of cheap Chinese labor, off-loading the dark side of capitalism into their suzerain.

Singapore, meanwhile, sees 60% of GDP generated by a government owned corporation, Tamasek Holdings.

If Hong Kong were a European country it would rank 22 in population. That's more than half of Europe's countries.  Why does China have these same issues that are supposedly brough by capitalism (child labor, economic disparity, sweat shops) when its economy is more democratically regulated than other market-economies? Shouldn't that greater democratic control lead to more egalitarianism? 

It is far from democratically regulated. Do not conflate elected power with single-party dictatorships.

You also seem to have ignored the Singapore point. They are very state-controlled, just in a very different way (through state participation in markets rather than state regulation of markets. Arguably more socialist in that the state controls the means of production for 60% of the economy)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

spurgeonryan said:
VitroBahllee said:
spurgeonryan said:


Please. In my threads only post fully realized thought processes that add up to at least a paragraph or more. I would like detailed Abdllah oblongata thesis's on why you think America can never be a Socialist state.

That would be 'medulla oblongata.'

You are correcting a word I spelled wrong, when the rest of the sentence was entirely pulled out of my Arse?

You used a posssessive apostrophe on "thesis's" that doesn't make sense either. The plural of thesis is 'theses,' and you don't use possive apostrophes to show plurality.

Better?



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ArnoldRimmer said:
bonzobanana said:

As a british person my views are everyone should be entitled to equal health care, education, justice and other essential services as the ideal. However I believe totally in capitalism and that people who work hard, are inventive, highly skilled, enterprising etc should be rewarded.  The only exclusions clearly are violent criminals who by their actions become in my view sub-human and obviously should not have many of the same rights. Their freedoms should be severely limited too.

Hey bonzobanana, the 1930s called - they want their ideology back...

*SCNR*

Ok, how about you build your utopia and then we ship all the violent criminals of the world your way to deal with. Here in Britain we have a great justice system but the punishment for crimes of violence is often ridiculoulsy light with short sentences and often early release. It's important not to release such people back into society.



lol this is the level of thinking of the extreme batshit right wing christian fundamentalist types. it's sad that people that intellectually inebriated are allowed to vote and associate with the rest of us.



Mr Khan said:

It is far from democratically regulated. Do not conflate elected power with single-party dictatorships.

You also seem to have ignored the Singapore point. They are very state-controlled, just in a very different way (through state participation in markets rather than state regulation of markets. Arguably more socialist in that the state controls the means of production for 60% of the economy)

Does one dominant party eliminate political diversity? I'm pretty sure Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping had quite different ideas on the economy, for example. The Chinese vote for their local government, and their local governments vote for their provincial, and their provincial votes for their national government. That is a representative system, and the politicians ARE elected. I mean, is the American system much different? We end up with moderate presidents who do the same things as the last regardless of our superior system. It seems like the electoral system we have in the U.S, except there is no pretense. 

Under the electoral law of 1 July 1979, nomination of candidates for direct elections (in countiestownships, etc.) can be made by the Communist Party of China, the various other political parties, mass organizations, or any voter seconded by at least 3 others. The final list of electoral candidates must be worked out through "discussion and consultation" or primary elections, but in practice is determined by the election committee in consultation with small groups of voters, through a process known as the "three ups and three downs" (三上三下 or sān shàng sān xià).

The number of candidates for an election should be 50% to 100% larger than the number of seats, voting is to be done by secret ballot, and voters are theoretically entitled to recall elections. Eligible voters, and their electoral districts, are chosen from the family (户籍) or work unit (单位 or dānwèiregisters for rural and urban voters, respectively, which are then submitted to the election committees after cross-examination by electoral district leaders. Electoral districts at the basic level (townshipstowns, etc.) are composed of 200–300 voters but sometimes up to 1000, while larger levels (counties, etc.) are composed of 2000–5000 voters.

The National People's Congress (NPC) has 3,000-3,500 members, elected for five year terms. Deputies are elected (over a three-month period) by the people's congresses of the country's 23 provinces, five autonomous regions and the four municipalities directly under the Central Government, the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau and the armed forces. The size of each college of delegates is related to the number of electors in the constituency. 36 deputies are elected in Hong Kong.

The President and Vice President of China, the Chairman, Vice-Chairman, and Secretary-General of the Standing Committee of the NPC, the Chairman of the Central Military Commission, and the President of the Supreme People's Court are elected by the NPC on the nomination of the Presidium of the NPC. The Premier is elected by the NPC on the nomination of the President.

 In order to represent different segments of the population and bring in technical expertise, the CCP does ensure that a significant minority of people's congress delegates either minor party or non-party delegates, and there is tolerance of disagreement and debate in the legislative process where this does not fundamentally challenge the role of the Communist Party.


I was researching Singapore a bit, before I commented on it. I agree that it was a bad example. It seems to me that government spending is still very low in Singapore, despite it owning up to 60% GDP produced. Meaning, for an individual, the market is essentially free. However, your point stands with regards to government ownership possibly being the reason why there isn't any of the robber-baron effects. Nevertheless, such a business is ran as any other, and isn't publicly or commonly controlled through a democratic system. Which arguably, makes it more state-capitalist than state socialist. Either way, it's not laissez-faire, just efficient by trusting the market. 



BraLoD said:
If you start calling USA as America, you can't expect me to give you an answer.
Because I'm American too, as I live in Brazil, and I don't think our continent is only your country, as it really isn't.
Cuba is part of America too and until some time ago was a socialistic country, and you can't call an American country anti-American.
But even if you are only talking about USA, no, people are free do have their own ideals, and USA is supposed to be a free country, so anti-USA would be judge people for what they believe and try to impose what they have to be.

I've been through this many times. The Americans, call the United States of America, America because at one time it was a collection of colonies found on the continent of North America, and all persons within these colonies and in Britain called these people Americans and the collection of these colonies America. It has nothing to do with American egocentrism. Don't like it? Don't speak English. 

Now there are the continents of North America and South America, and in the English language, we refer to their inhabitants as North Americans and South Americans. 

Another interesting fact is that the collection of American English colonies were also called Columbia, by many. Hence, Washington: District of Columbia. 



BraLoD said:
sc94597 said:
BraLoD said:
If you start calling USA as America, you can't expect me to give you an answer.
Because I'm American too, as I live in Brazil, and I don't think our continent is only your country, as it really isn't.
Cuba is part of America too and until some time ago was a socialistic country, and you can't call an American country anti-American.
But even if you are only talking about USA, no, people are free do have their own ideals, and USA is supposed to be a free country, so anti-USA would be judge people for what they believe and try to impose what they have to be.

I've been through this many times. The Americans, call the United States of America, America because at one time it was a collection of colonies found on the continent of North America, and all persons within these colonies and in Britain called these people Americans and the collection of these colonies America. It has nothing to do with American egocentrism. Don't like it? Don't speak English. 

Now there are the continents of North America and South America, and in the English language, we refer to their inhabitants as North Americans and South Americans. 

Another interesting fact is that the collection of American English colonies were also called Columbia, by many. Hence, Washington: District of Columbia. 

Why should I stop speaking English if I don't like how people say it? it's not an exclusive language to USA, USA just borrowed it from England, what sense does it make? How speaking english is directly related to USA? Or like USA call themself America you also think USA is the only to speak English? So if I live in England and don't like it I should stop speaking english because of that? (not the case, just to give an example).  And if it's wrong I can point it and say what I want, as I'm also American and I have the right to claim it. And I'm done, be happy.

The English refer to the United States as America as well, as do Australians, Irish, Welsh, Scottish, South Africans, New Zealanders, Canadians and pretty much any native English-speaker. You are the one telling us we're wrong for using a convention found in the language throughout the whole freaking world. If it bothers you so much, then you can easily opt out by not speaking the language. It really isn't polite etiquette to go around critizing one's linguistic conventions and labeling them as "wrong" when they're in fact arbitary, especially one so widespread as American in reference to persons born in the geographic boundaries of the United States of America, and extention of rooted in what English speakers referred to English colonies in North America.  Also, to modify your statement, English was brought with native speakers from England to the United States. It wasn't "borrowed" it was a part of their identity which they brought with them.  It wasn't as if early Americans spoke a different language and decided to just "borrow" English from England. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_(word)

In modern English, Americans generally refers to residents of the United States; among native English speakers this usage is almost universal, with any other use of the term requiring specification.[However, this default use has been the source of controversy, particularly among Latin Americans, who feel that using the term solely for the United States misappropriates it