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Forums - Politics Discussion - If Hitchen's challenge is correct, then why are there ethical lapses?

Note he says "moral or ethical action or behaviour". Not to any particular standard of morality. (Note since the Bible is also morally ambiguous and/or impossible to follow literally, that's true for believers as well.)

People never believe they are evil. They can justify what they are doing as right; it's practically why our brains exist. His argument is that belief or non-belief doesn't affect our possible range of choices.



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richardhutnik said:
SlayerRondo said:
Come on really? You are taking what he said to an absurd extreme.

No, I am trying to practically apply what Hitchens said to a reality, asking exactly what good or evil people, do.  One can argue that a person, in a religious community, is capable of doing good they wouldn't be alone, because they have encouragement and moral support, to help make right decisions, that they would lack without having.  Person comes under the influence of others and lives a life where they give up things, or start doing things.  Atheism doesn't produce such communities.  What you get under atheism is pretty much government programs that do things.  You don't see atheists really doing what Mother Teressa did.  You will actually end you have Penn Gilletes of the world end up saying stuff like science and free markets do more good than Mother Teressa did.

No, I am looking at a practical reality, unless one wants ethics to be nothing more than just some sort of impractical scoreboard we use to feel good that we feel bad, and remind us we are not barbarians and savages.  

So again here, if Hitchens is correct in that, there is NO act anyone needs any God for to do, that is right, then exactly why do people fall short?

Mother Teressa was not a good person by any strech of the imagination. Much of the money she raised was for the church coffers and little and less saw it's way into the hand's of the needy. Some of her care facilities actually set up to help the poor are beyond horrible and could have used more money badly. She was obsesed with suffering and though it brought people closer to god.

And by the way most charitable organizations are secular not religious and often do more good as they give freely without trying to sell their superstitions. I am an athiest and have many athiest friends/family who provide me with moral support and encouragement as do i for them. 

PS: All athiest do not believe in big government. I do not believe in the government but rather people helping out other people from the kindness of their hearts rather than being forced to by the government/god.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

SlayerRondo said:
richardhutnik said:
SlayerRondo said:
Come on really? You are taking what he said to an absurd extreme.

No, I am trying to practically apply what Hitchens said to a reality, asking exactly what good or evil people, do.  One can argue that a person, in a religious community, is capable of doing good they wouldn't be alone, because they have encouragement and moral support, to help make right decisions, that they would lack without having.  Person comes under the influence of others and lives a life where they give up things, or start doing things.  Atheism doesn't produce such communities.  What you get under atheism is pretty much government programs that do things.  You don't see atheists really doing what Mother Teressa did.  You will actually end you have Penn Gilletes of the world end up saying stuff like science and free markets do more good than Mother Teressa did.

No, I am looking at a practical reality, unless one wants ethics to be nothing more than just some sort of impractical scoreboard we use to feel good that we feel bad, and remind us we are not barbarians and savages.  

So again here, if Hitchens is correct in that, there is NO act anyone needs any God for to do, that is right, then exactly why do people fall short?

Mother Teressa was not a good person by any strech of the imagination. Much of the money she raised was for the church coffers and little and less saw it's way into the hand's of the needy. Some of her care facilities actually set up to help the poor are beyond horrible and could have used more money badly. She was obsesed with suffering and though it brought people closer to god.

And by the way most charitable organizations are secular not religious and often do more good as they give freely without trying to sell their superstitions. I am an athiest and have many athiest friends/family who provide me with moral support and encouragement as do i for them. 

PS: All athiest do not believe in big government. I do not believe in the government but rather people helping out other people from the kindness of their hearts rather than being forced to by the government/god.

So, what matters to you more is the condition of the heart of the giver than the condition of the person who is in ineed?  When I see a comment like the one you wrote, said by many others, more times than not, the person is more than willing to have more people suffer if indivduals are less than willing to give, because giving is seen as a virtue of someone, rather than the end result of what happens to the people in question. 

And also, how about questioning the person who has the bad attitude about letting go of some of their wealth to make sure those in need get something?  Maybe the issue, more times than not about the "goodness of the heart" is that the heart isn't as good as people want to make it out to be.



Soleron said:
Note he says "moral or ethical action or behaviour". Not to any particular standard of morality. (Note since the Bible is also morally ambiguous and/or impossible to follow literally, that's true for believers as well.)

People never believe they are evil. They can justify what they are doing as right; it's practically why our brains exist. His argument is that belief or non-belief doesn't affect our possible range of choices.

How does one determine what "moral or ethical action or behavior" is, unless it measure up to a certain standard of morality?  And what you said is a kicker here.  Anyone could take what Hitchens said, and if they don't want to do anything, don't label the issue in questio as an ethical necessity.



richardhutnik said:
SlayerRondo said:
richardhutnik said:
SlayerRondo said:
Come on really? You are taking what he said to an absurd extreme.

No, I am trying to practically apply what Hitchens said to a reality, asking exactly what good or evil people, do.  One can argue that a person, in a religious community, is capable of doing good they wouldn't be alone, because they have encouragement and moral support, to help make right decisions, that they would lack without having.  Person comes under the influence of others and lives a life where they give up things, or start doing things.  Atheism doesn't produce such communities.  What you get under atheism is pretty much government programs that do things.  You don't see atheists really doing what Mother Teressa did.  You will actually end you have Penn Gilletes of the world end up saying stuff like science and free markets do more good than Mother Teressa did.

No, I am looking at a practical reality, unless one wants ethics to be nothing more than just some sort of impractical scoreboard we use to feel good that we feel bad, and remind us we are not barbarians and savages.  

So again here, if Hitchens is correct in that, there is NO act anyone needs any God for to do, that is right, then exactly why do people fall short?

Mother Teressa was not a good person by any strech of the imagination. Much of the money she raised was for the church coffers and little and less saw it's way into the hand's of the needy. Some of her care facilities actually set up to help the poor are beyond horrible and could have used more money badly. She was obsesed with suffering and though it brought people closer to god.

And by the way most charitable organizations are secular not religious and often do more good as they give freely without trying to sell their superstitions. I am an athiest and have many athiest friends/family who provide me with moral support and encouragement as do i for them. 

PS: All athiest do not believe in big government. I do not believe in the government but rather people helping out other people from the kindness of their hearts rather than being forced to by the government/god.

So, what matters to you more is the condition of the heart of the giver than the condition of the person who is in ineed?  When I see a comment like the one you wrote, said by many others, more times than not, the person is more than willing to have more people suffer if indivduals are less than willing to give, because giving is seen as a virtue of someone, rather than the end result of what happens to the people in question. 

And also, how about questioning the person who has the bad attitude about letting go of some of their wealth to make sure those in need get something?  Maybe the issue, more times than not about the "goodness of the heart" is that the heart isn't as good as people want to make it out to be.

No the condition of the person in need is of primary concern i just believe that people should do it of their own free will rather than being forced to do it. And yes many people give to improve their self image rather than out of kindness. For example the Government give's help/other people's money to people for votes or religions will give their help in order to convert people to their religion. 

The heart can be as good as people make it to be. Call me idealistic but that's the way i think people can be if the try hard enough. People have heart but choose to ignore it for their own conveinience. And yes their are some legitimately bad people.

And just out of curiosity what was your solution for helping the needy again?



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

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richardhutnik said:
Soleron said:
Note he says "moral or ethical action or behaviour". Not to any particular standard of morality. (Note since the Bible is also morally ambiguous and/or impossible to follow literally, that's true for believers as well.)

People never believe they are evil. They can justify what they are doing as right; it's practically why our brains exist. His argument is that belief or non-belief doesn't affect our possible range of choices.

How does one determine what "moral or ethical action or behavior" is, unless it measure up to a certain standard of morality?  And what you said is a kicker here.  Anyone could take what Hitchens said, and if they don't want to do anything, don't label the issue in questio as an ethical necessity.

"moral or ethical action or behavior" = choice. that we make. good or bad by anyone's standards. I'd like to see the context - does Hitchens mean for that statement to mean 'good'? Right now it reads like 'any'.



richardhutnik said:

Hitchens argues that atheism is morally superior, but fails to shows in practice, particularly his life, that it is so.

Comparing one random atheist who was apparently immoral because he smoked and got a divorce to a bunch of hypothetical Mormons (in reality, there are Mormons who smoke and get divorced, you know) is not a good way to determine whether or not atheism is more moral than religiousness. Besides, it is pretty obvious that Hitchens was responding to the pervasive notion that people have of religious people being more moral than atheists, to the point that a large number of Americans say outright that they would refuse to vote for an atheist.



Because people want stuff?

Of course that said... while an atheist can be as moral as a religious person... research has shown on average, they aren't, and that on average the less religious you are the more prodding that is needed to get you to help others. 

 

Those late night abused animals and African children commercials more or less exist specifically because of atheists and unobserving religious folk.



richardhutnik said:
kanageddaamen said:
Regardless of what is considered virtuous, moral, or immoral, they are done so in the bible by command, rather than by self reflection, logical analysis and mutual interest in the betterment of the society in which we exist, all of which are completely disjointed from any religion. Morality only exists in a realm where there is the possibility of no punishment or no reward for your actions. Doing something good, or not doing something bad motivated by self interest is not morality. With an omniscient, omnipotent being, there is an ever fear of punishment and hope of reward, which nullifies any potential moral decision on the part of the individual. In which case, we a re back to obedience to what is commanded, or not.

You may try to split hairs and say it wasn't rape because it doesn't use the word rape, but that is what the passages mean. Numbers 31:18 is particularly blatant. "but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man"

Sorry, that is telling them to take the virgins as spoils, ie to have sex with. I don't think these rampaging savages were interested in reading poetry by a babbling brook. And this wasn't an abstract "what to do in war" this was a specific command for a specific instance.

But fine, I will allow that tap-dancery. Another act that is objectively immoral is slavery, which is commanded frequently in the bible too. Or the murder of innocent children, etc etc etc. These things are objectively immoral. They are wrong regardless of whom commands them.

Based on your modern view of things, you have these view of things.  About every culture on the planet ended up doing slavery.  A question you have to ask is, who exactly lead abolition movement around the world and how did it happen.    You may want to look into that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism

You may also want to look up the history of William Wliberforce and how he got into the abolitionist business.  Thing is that you aren't going to end up find anything on the atheist side that manage to get anyone to suddenly be anti-slavery from that side, because atheism is a negation.  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce

But, if you want to get into what the New Testament, you see the letters of Paul and others on what is demanded, where the issue of treatment is dealt with above all.  

 

 

So your argument is that slavery is morally ambiguous?  That it is sometimes okay to keep another person against their will and force them to perform labor for you?  This illustrates Hitchen's point precisely.  The only way to reach a conclusion of moral acceptability of slavery is to either a.) be told it is okay by religion or b.) hold a view that a separate group of people (the slaves) are innately inferior to another (the slavers) and hence its okay to treat them as animals.

My assertion that slavery is immoral is not based on my "modern view" but on logical analysis and a lack of a superiority view of myself over others.  You argue that slavery is conditionally moral based how society feels about it, I argue that slavery is unconditionally immoral and society allowed it and judged it okay due to selfishness, greed, and racial or religious bias (among other things)

I notice you make the mistake a lot of religious people make and treat atheism as a religion.  It isn't.  Atheists are all individual people with a variety of motivations and personalities sharing no common group of beliefs or doctrines.  They just believe in one less god than you do.  That is all that connects these people into a "group"

A religion on the other hand, has a set of history, beliefs and tenants that are agreed upon by all participants and can be pointed to as motivators for that group.  This is the crux of Hitchen's argument.  There is no moral thing that religion allows someone to do that an atheist cannot.  Religion does however justify immoral things which there is no basis for justification for an atheist.

 



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Kasz216 said:

Because people want stuff?

Of course that said... while an atheist can be as moral as a religious person... research has shown on average, they aren't, and that on average the less religious you are the more prodding that is needed to get you to help others. 

 

Those late night abused animals and African children commercials more or less exist specifically because of atheists and unobserving religious folk.

Source?