Quantcast
Prove that God exists

Forums - General Discussion - Prove that God exists

nightsurge said:
Porcupine_I said:
nightsurge said:
Porcupine_I said:
nightsurge said:
Porcupine_I said:
nightsurge said:
Porcupine_I said:
nightsurge said:

I will ignore the slightly insulting OP's usage of "archaic" and other words that imply belief in a religion to be silly, old fashioned, or otherwise odd.

I just have two things to say:

 

  1. Science never PROVES anything. This is a common misusage/misconception.
  1. If you wish to believe in the Big Bang Theory or other creation theories that don't rely on a devine being, explain to me where the very first object in the universe came from. They say the Big Bang started from a very small amount of elements that began moving extremely rapidly in a dense state. Well, what about where those elements came from? They had to come from somewhere, correct? Just a little philosophical conundrum.

 

Enjoy :)

the simple fact that we even discuss the big bang theory is due to that science has proven a lot of things to that point. Things that could not be accepted in other times, but they turned out to be true. and some were only proven because people stood up to their believes. and these things gradually became accepted as truth and fact and it was the religions who had to give way to knowledge.

it was never the other way around, and i doubt it ever will be.

otherwise the sun would still revolve around earth in the center of the universe and we would still be scared to sail over the edge.

or do you beleive these are theories too?

 

What I said was a fact.

Science does not PROVE anything. Yet you just used the words "proof, proven, prove" a lot in that response. Science can NEVER ever prove anything to 100% certainty and all educated scientists themselves know and accept this as fact.

It was never religion that claimed we were the center of the universe or that the earth was flat, it was the people's intelligence and Science at those points in time. So yes, those are/were theories and they have since evolved into what we understand today. Theories gain evidence to either support or refute their claims, but they never ever irrefutably prove anything. I was merely trying to emphasize that fact.

Also, I have avoided making my personal beliefs known up to this point, but I will divulge now. What I believe is a combination of both Scientific theories and God for the explanation of creation. There is no reason a god could not have used events such as the big bang or evolution to create the universe as it is today. The Bible intentionally leaves things up for interpretation, I feel. Such as when it says that God created the heavens and the earth, and created the earth in 6 days. But what is a "day" to an all powerful being that exists beyond time itself and has no essence of "time"? Millions of years forming the earth could be a blink of an eye to this being. He/She could very well have used volcanic eruptions, slow erosion, and evolution of species over millions of years to form what we have now. Time is merely a concept that we humans created. There is no reason one cannot believe in both Scientific theories such as the Big Bang/Evolution and in a higher power. But that's just my own personal beliefs from not accepting everything that was thrown at me at face value and making my own informed decisions on the topics.

Now, that is interesting, because if nobody can ever prove anything, why even use a universal creator to justify what is written in the bible?

by your definition the bible cannot be used as a source of anything at all, and every  educated person should be aware of that fact or does that not go both ways?

--That is why it is called "Faith" :) I never once said the Bible or a divine creator has been fully proven or any variation thereof.

And what makes you say religion never claimed we were the center of the universe? are you not familiar with the story of Galileo Galilei?

After 1610, when he began publicly supporting the heliocentric view, which placed the Sun at the centre of the universe, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. In February 1616, although he had been cleared of any offence, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture", and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

--Ahh, Catholics. They tend to create their own set of rules/guidelines that were not ever mentioned or even supported in the Bible. It happens sometimes with Christian denominations which is why I am non-denominational. The leaders of such denominations are power hungry as any human is and abuse that power just as often as anyone else does in a position of power, but I digress. There is no actual supporting evidence in scripture that claims the Earth is the center of the universe, the sun revolves around the earth, it is flat, etc. There is only flawed interpretations made by people of early time periods that lacked the Scientific knowledge that we have today.

so you claim there is no definitive proof that the earth is revolving about the sun?

--No, I claim that Science does not "PROVE" anything, merely, "Everything observed thus far is consistent with". But you are reading way too far into my comment about Science not proving anything. For more information, though, you can look here:

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=5725
Or google it yourself. There is plenty of information out there and sound reasoning for it.

if you do not want people to read into your comments, then maybe you should explain your reasoning properly in the first place.

And yet you still did not dismiss the fact (yes, i am using the word fact, as it seems to be legitimate enough for you) that it was science that brought us to the point where we are even able to discuss the big bang theory.

that's what i call beating around the bush.

I have no idea what you are talking about. My comments were quite clear and to the point. This whole time you seem to be thinking I am apposed to Science in some way, shape, or form, which I am not at all. I was merely emphasizing a common truth about Science in that it does not prove anything. Please do yourself and others a favor and read up on that.

I have nothing wrong with the Big Bang theory, evolution, or anything else Science has brought about through observation.

good! another one converted!

What are you talking about? I have always thought that... I explained my beliefs a few posts ago

don't be silly! your initial post contained a question about the big bang theory and in the end you were fine with it, and i did that using the magical powers of science that you wouldn't understand :P 



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

Around the Network
Sevengen said:
....one more thing Runa
I know you've hear the expression that God works in mysterious ways. That is true. There are those that he will fight for because their belief in him has value and there are others that, simply put, have long since been lost.
I know which one you are.
-Sevengen

Where's your proof?  Offer some supporting evidence and I'll be glad to debate with you. claiming something awfully convenient isn't exactly scientific. 



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 3 this generation: 
Bloodborne, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III

Ah, yes....man will always want proof for every claim of existence. Its really in our nature to prove what is real...to be the one that is "correct". Several times I have gotten involved in these debates and the ball will continually get beaten around back and forth.

here is what I will say: scientists can observe that if they place pieces of metals, plastics, and various materials in a sealed room for many years and then observe the result it is not going to eventually form a laptop. The pieces will stay as they lay and even deteriorate over time. No scientist can observe any form of order taking place to better those materials into something more complex.

Therefore from scientific observation I don't see life spontaneously occuring no matter how much time is given. I have not seen science proove something like that occuring, so from a rational stand point I don't see how man can say there was no intelligent intervention in the beginning.

And so the rebuttals will continue...




Umos-Cmos said:
Jay520 said:
Umos-Cmos said:

This simple answer is that I have proved him.  I started with a sincere desire to know God.  From there I read from his holy scriptures and studied to learn more of him.  The scriptures tell us that if we lack wisdom to ask of God.  I did just that, through prayer.  I asked to know if what I was reading and learning was true.  The scriptures tell us how we can know the truth of all things.  Through the power of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost speaks to our minds and hearts in a still, small voice and causes our hearts to burn within us.  When our hearts and minds agree with the question we ask of God, it is a confirmation of that truth.  The key ingredient to all of this however, is sincerity.  If you aren't sincere in your quest to know God you will not find the answers to the questions you seek.

I have done these things and through spiritual experiences that I will not share on a public forum, I know that God is real and that he loves me and wants what is best for me.  No doubt whatsoever.  The Holy Ghost can leave an indelible mark on your heart that you will not be able to deny.  I have witnessed miracles around me and also had miracles happen to me personally.  All things in my mind denote that there is a God.  The stars and planets in their orbit, the nature of life itself and the vastness of the universe.

If you sincerely want to know these things that I've spoken of you merely need to plant that desire in your heart, nourish it with the word of God and see if it grows within you.  Mans words alone will never convince you.  The feelings of the Holy Ghost will.


Wouldn't be impossible for one to have a desire for something they don't believe in. Does that mean Athiest are damned even if they try their hardest to find him.?

I absolutely agree with you on that.  One cannot truly believe unless he has had the answer I spoke of in my post above.  Therefore an Atheist does not believe initially.  If he is humble and sincere, through the power of the Holy Ghost the answer to his question will be revealed.  An Atheist would simply kneel down and pray to God with sincerity of heart to know if he truly exists.  One must ask with a broken heart and a contrite spirit in order to receive their answer.  Some do not want to know if there is a God.  That is their choice and I respect that.  God knows the true desires of our heart.  God does not toy with us.  He has given us commandments and through obedience to those commandments there are promised blessings.  I receive those blessings in my own life.

You see, if you wanted to conduct a scientific experiment to see if a seed can grow into a plant, you would need to plant the seed in good soil first.  Then you would have to nourish it with water and sunlight.  Learning the Gospel of Jesus Christ is no different.  You must test this experiment in your heart to see if it yields good fruit.  Hopefully that makes sense.

So, if you don't already believe in God, you're fucked unless you're heartbroken.  If I believed in God, that would be heartbreaking, but I wouldn't need to be because I already believed in God ... *head asplode*

Look, I'd be ecstatic to find out if God existed, but simple exposure to holy texts didn't do the job.  It's not that I didn't want to learn, it's that I wasn't convinced. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Jay520 said:
Umos-Cmos said:

This simple answer is that I have proved him.  I started with a sincere desire to know God.  From there I read from his holy scriptures and studied to learn more of him.  The scriptures tell us that if we lack wisdom to ask of God.  I did just that, through prayer.  I asked to know if what I was reading and learning was true.  The scriptures tell us how we can know the truth of all things.  Through the power of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost speaks to our minds and hearts in a still, small voice and causes our hearts to burn within us.  When our hearts and minds agree with the question we ask of God, it is a confirmation of that truth.  The key ingredient to all of this however, is sincerity.  If you aren't sincere in your quest to know God you will not find the answers to the questions you seek.

I have done these things and through spiritual experiences that I will not share on a public forum, I know that God is real and that he loves me and wants what is best for me.  No doubt whatsoever.  The Holy Ghost can leave an indelible mark on your heart that you will not be able to deny.  I have witnessed miracles around me and also had miracles happen to me personally.  All things in my mind denote that there is a God.  The stars and planets in their orbit, the nature of life itself and the vastness of the universe.

If you sincerely want to know these things that I've spoken of you merely need to plant that desire in your heart, nourish it with the word of God and see if it grows within you.  Mans words alone will never convince you.  The feelings of the Holy Ghost will.


Wouldn't be impossible for one to have a desire for something they don't believe in. Does that mean Athiest are damned even if they try their hardest to find him.?

I absolutely agree with you on that.  One cannot truly believe unless he has had the answer I spoke of in my post above.  Therefore an Atheist does not believe initially.  If he is humble and sincere, through the power of the Holy Ghost the answer to his question will be revealed.  An Atheist would simply kneel down and pray to God with sincerity of heart to know if he truly exists.  One must ask with a broken heart and a contrite spirit in order to receive their answer.  Some do not want to know if there is a God.  That is their choice and I respect that.  God knows the true desires of our heart.  God does not toy with us.  He has given us commandments and through obedience to those commandments there are promised blessings.  I receive those blessings in my own life.

You see, if you wanted to conduct a scientific experiment to see if a seed can grow into a plant, you would need to plant the seed in good soil first.  Then you would have to nourish it with water and sunlight.  Learning the Gospel of Jesus Christ is no different.  You must test this experiment in your heart to see if it yields good fruit.  Hopefully that makes sense.

So, if you don't already believe in God, you're fucked unless you're heartbroken.  If I believed in God, that would be heartbreaking, but I wouldn't need to be because I already believed in God ... *head asplode*

Look, I'd be ecstatic to find out if God existed, but simple exposure to holy texts didn't do the job.  It's not that I didn't want to learn, it's that I wasn't convinced. 

I believe you misunderstood some of my post.  To clarify your confusion about the "heartbroken" text I will define the word.  Essentially I'm saying that someone would need to approach God with humility.  Substitue heartbroken with humility and it should make more sense to you.  After all, if someone already has their mind made up while "searching" for God what kind of answer do you think they will get?  It takes humility and sincerity.

Also I am curious about your quest to prove if there is a God.  What kind of "exposure" did you have to holy texts?  How did you think your answer would come?



"Some of you are thinking that you won't fight. Others, that you can't fight. They all say that, until they're out there."
--
PIKMIN FAN CLUB MEMBER

Around the Network
Dr.Grass said:
BluGamer23 said:
Satan would be proud of this Thread. done


Yes, because he is working SO hard to 'get one over the big guy' right!? He carefully makes plans to try and corrupt the hearts of God's children so that they might stray from the path of righteousness. Then, upon seeing that His children have been swayed by the snake, God damns them to eternal suffering where they will encounter unprecedented pain and sorrow because of being deceived by the arch-rival, Satan.

God tries to save His children from Satan, but to no avail - the thread is not locked by the moderators.

What an awful world and horrible predicament. Life isn't fair.

I suppose that makes us all Satanists



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

gamrReview - Arthur Kabrick | My All-Time Top 50 | 2013 Metascores

                                        

MARCUSDJACKSON said:
The Fury said:

You are thinking based on knowledge we humans possess, which is limited at best. Your thoughts are created from nothing every moment of every day, you should have no more belief in your own thoughts then you do of God. Why did there have to be something before God? if God is the 'begining and end of all' then God is the thing that existed before God. Logical thinking is not be used when those who believe in God show you their proof. Their faith is, and faith is something that comes from nothing.

something that comes from nothing is nothing.

So you're saying your thoughts are nothing?

To have faith and belief in God is enough proof for those who believe in him. Faith isn't a physical thing we can show or a certain energy signiture we can measure, it just is. It comes from a place apparently you don't understand. Or maybe you do just not the context, do you support a sports team?

I personally do not believe in God, his lack of existance has been shown to me first hand.



Hmm, pie.

Umos-Cmos said:

I believe you misunderstood some of my post.  To clarify your confusion about the "heartbroken" text I will define the word.  Essentially I'm saying that someone would need to approach God with humility.  Substitue heartbroken with humility and it should make more sense to you.  After all, if someone already has their mind made up while "searching" for God what kind of answer do you think they will get?  It takes humility and sincerity.

Also I am curious about your quest to prove if there is a God.  What kind of "exposure" did you have to holy texts?  How did you think your answer would come?

Well, I'm not sure you can blame it on me if by "with a broken heart" you meant "with humility", but anyway. 

Basically, I grew up Catholic and had no reason to go against what I was taught, no rebellion against my parents etc.  But as I got older the whole thing seemed like it made less and less sense to me.  I realized that if you take the Bible word for word, it just doesn't hold up; and if you start throwing pieces out or "interpreting" them fairly loosely so that it all still makes sense, then it opens you up to questions about how reliable it all really is.  It left me wondering how much of the stuff in the Bible is actually accurate.  It was all written by fallible men, after all. 

The position I ended up at was that I don't know for a fact God doesn't exist, but I don't know He exists either, and if He does I don't know how much He resembles the (seemingly contradictory) descriptions in the Bible.  If, after I die, I find myself in some sort of afterlife, I'd certainly hope that if God is there He will understand that my doubts were reasonable and sincere and not send me to hell just because He elected not to make things more indisputable in this day and age (unlike in the Old Testament where Godly intervention happened all the time, allegedly).  Why should Doubting Thomas be the only one to get evidence? 

If you want something more specific, I don't know how much I can tell you about what specifically changed me over the years.  I do remember one thing:  reading the Book of Job, it seemed to me like God would have to be a humongous dick to act as depicted.  Gets in a pissing match with Satan, why?  Pride?  To prove how incredibly loyal his followers are?  It's not easy to reconcile this with the loving God we know from Sunday school. 

I did enjoy the Superbook cartoons as a kid though.  Couldn't get enough of them. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

The Fury said:
MARCUSDJACKSON said:
The Fury said:

You are thinking based on knowledge we humans possess, which is limited at best. Your thoughts are created from nothing every moment of every day, you should have no more belief in your own thoughts then you do of God. Why did there have to be something before God? if God is the 'begining and end of all' then God is the thing that existed before God. Logical thinking is not be used when those who believe in God show you their proof. Their faith is, and faith is something that comes from nothing.

something that comes from nothing is nothing.

So you're saying your thoughts are nothing?

To have faith and belief in God is enough proof for those who believe in him. Faith isn't a physical thing we can show or a certain energy signiture we can measure, it just is. It comes from a place apparently you don't understand. Or maybe you do just not the context, do you support a sports team?

I personally do not believe in God, his lack of existance has been shown to me first hand.

ok.  i don't beleive in anything i don't see, cant touch, or know is there by the 5 sinces.

wait i'm not sopporting the therory of a god? i might have miss read your original post.



Final-Fan said:
Umos-Cmos said:

I believe you misunderstood some of my post.  To clarify your confusion about the "heartbroken" text I will define the word.  Essentially I'm saying that someone would need to approach God with humility.  Substitue heartbroken with humility and it should make more sense to you.  After all, if someone already has their mind made up while "searching" for God what kind of answer do you think they will get?  It takes humility and sincerity.

Also I am curious about your quest to prove if there is a God.  What kind of "exposure" did you have to holy texts?  How did you think your answer would come?

Well, I'm not sure you can blame it on me if by "with a broken heart" you meant "with humility", but anyway. 

Basically, I grew up Catholic and had no reason to go against what I was taught, no rebellion against my parents etc.  But as I got older the whole thing seemed like it made less and less sense to me.  I realized that if you take the Bible word for word, it just doesn't hold up; and if you start throwing pieces out or "interpreting" them fairly loosely so that it all still makes sense, then it opens you up to questions about how reliable it all really is.  It left me wondering how much of the stuff in the Bible is actually accurate.  It was all written by fallible men, after all. 

The position I ended up at was that I don't know for a fact God doesn't exist, but I don't know He exists either, and if He does I don't know how much He resembles the (seemingly contradictory) descriptions in the Bible.  If, after I die, I find myself in some sort of afterlife, I'd certainly hope that if God is there He will understand that my doubts were reasonable and sincere and not send me to hell just because He elected not to make things more indisputable in this day and age (unlike in the Old Testament where Godly intervention happened all the time, allegedly).  Why should Doubting Thomas be the only one to get evidence? 

If you want something more specific, I don't know how much I can tell you about what specifically changed me over the years.  I do remember one thing:  reading the Book of Job, it seemed to me like God would have to be a humongous dick to act as depicted.  Gets in a pissing match with Satan, why?  Pride?  To prove how incredibly loyal his followers are?  It's not easy to reconcile this with the loving God we know from Sunday school. 

I did enjoy the Superbook cartoons as a kid though.  Couldn't get enough of them. 

this. i love this post.