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Umos-Cmos said:

I believe you misunderstood some of my post.  To clarify your confusion about the "heartbroken" text I will define the word.  Essentially I'm saying that someone would need to approach God with humility.  Substitue heartbroken with humility and it should make more sense to you.  After all, if someone already has their mind made up while "searching" for God what kind of answer do you think they will get?  It takes humility and sincerity.

Also I am curious about your quest to prove if there is a God.  What kind of "exposure" did you have to holy texts?  How did you think your answer would come?

Well, I'm not sure you can blame it on me if by "with a broken heart" you meant "with humility", but anyway. 

Basically, I grew up Catholic and had no reason to go against what I was taught, no rebellion against my parents etc.  But as I got older the whole thing seemed like it made less and less sense to me.  I realized that if you take the Bible word for word, it just doesn't hold up; and if you start throwing pieces out or "interpreting" them fairly loosely so that it all still makes sense, then it opens you up to questions about how reliable it all really is.  It left me wondering how much of the stuff in the Bible is actually accurate.  It was all written by fallible men, after all. 

The position I ended up at was that I don't know for a fact God doesn't exist, but I don't know He exists either, and if He does I don't know how much He resembles the (seemingly contradictory) descriptions in the Bible.  If, after I die, I find myself in some sort of afterlife, I'd certainly hope that if God is there He will understand that my doubts were reasonable and sincere and not send me to hell just because He elected not to make things more indisputable in this day and age (unlike in the Old Testament where Godly intervention happened all the time, allegedly).  Why should Doubting Thomas be the only one to get evidence? 

If you want something more specific, I don't know how much I can tell you about what specifically changed me over the years.  I do remember one thing:  reading the Book of Job, it seemed to me like God would have to be a humongous dick to act as depicted.  Gets in a pissing match with Satan, why?  Pride?  To prove how incredibly loyal his followers are?  It's not easy to reconcile this with the loving God we know from Sunday school. 

I did enjoy the Superbook cartoons as a kid though.  Couldn't get enough of them. 



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The Fury said:
MARCUSDJACKSON said:
The Fury said:

You are thinking based on knowledge we humans possess, which is limited at best. Your thoughts are created from nothing every moment of every day, you should have no more belief in your own thoughts then you do of God. Why did there have to be something before God? if God is the 'begining and end of all' then God is the thing that existed before God. Logical thinking is not be used when those who believe in God show you their proof. Their faith is, and faith is something that comes from nothing.

something that comes from nothing is nothing.

So you're saying your thoughts are nothing?

To have faith and belief in God is enough proof for those who believe in him. Faith isn't a physical thing we can show or a certain energy signiture we can measure, it just is. It comes from a place apparently you don't understand. Or maybe you do just not the context, do you support a sports team?

I personally do not believe in God, his lack of existance has been shown to me first hand.

ok.  i don't beleive in anything i don't see, cant touch, or know is there by the 5 sinces.

wait i'm not sopporting the therory of a god? i might have miss read your original post.



Final-Fan said:
Umos-Cmos said:

I believe you misunderstood some of my post.  To clarify your confusion about the "heartbroken" text I will define the word.  Essentially I'm saying that someone would need to approach God with humility.  Substitue heartbroken with humility and it should make more sense to you.  After all, if someone already has their mind made up while "searching" for God what kind of answer do you think they will get?  It takes humility and sincerity.

Also I am curious about your quest to prove if there is a God.  What kind of "exposure" did you have to holy texts?  How did you think your answer would come?

Well, I'm not sure you can blame it on me if by "with a broken heart" you meant "with humility", but anyway. 

Basically, I grew up Catholic and had no reason to go against what I was taught, no rebellion against my parents etc.  But as I got older the whole thing seemed like it made less and less sense to me.  I realized that if you take the Bible word for word, it just doesn't hold up; and if you start throwing pieces out or "interpreting" them fairly loosely so that it all still makes sense, then it opens you up to questions about how reliable it all really is.  It left me wondering how much of the stuff in the Bible is actually accurate.  It was all written by fallible men, after all. 

The position I ended up at was that I don't know for a fact God doesn't exist, but I don't know He exists either, and if He does I don't know how much He resembles the (seemingly contradictory) descriptions in the Bible.  If, after I die, I find myself in some sort of afterlife, I'd certainly hope that if God is there He will understand that my doubts were reasonable and sincere and not send me to hell just because He elected not to make things more indisputable in this day and age (unlike in the Old Testament where Godly intervention happened all the time, allegedly).  Why should Doubting Thomas be the only one to get evidence? 

If you want something more specific, I don't know how much I can tell you about what specifically changed me over the years.  I do remember one thing:  reading the Book of Job, it seemed to me like God would have to be a humongous dick to act as depicted.  Gets in a pissing match with Satan, why?  Pride?  To prove how incredibly loyal his followers are?  It's not easy to reconcile this with the loving God we know from Sunday school. 

I did enjoy the Superbook cartoons as a kid though.  Couldn't get enough of them. 

this. i love this post.



Allfreedom99 said:
Ah, yes....man will always want proof for every claim of existence. Its really in our nature to prove what is real...to be the one that is "correct". Several times I have gotten involved in these debates and the ball will continually get beaten around back and forth.

here is what I will say: scientists can observe that if they place pieces of metals, plastics, and various materials in a sealed room for many years and then observe the result it is not going to eventually form a laptop. The pieces will stay as they lay and even deteriorate over time. No scientist can observe any form of order taking place to better those materials into something more complex.

Therefore from scientific observation I don't see life spontaneously occuring no matter how much time is given. I have not seen science proove something like that occuring, so from a rational stand point I don't see how man can say there was no intelligent intervention in the beginning.

And so the rebuttals will continue...

perfectly said.



Sevengen said:
....one more thing Runa
I know you've hear the expression that God works in mysterious ways. That is true. There are those that he will fight for because their belief in him has value and there are others that, simply put, have long since been lost.
I know which one you are.
-Sevengen

Any person who damns another or proclaim that he is been rejected by God (whom you don't even know at all) is living a lie. Sorry Sevengen, but you will be treated as you treat others.



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of course god exists and its very simple to prove. just look around you, hell take a look at yourself in the mirror. forget science, god made science. alot of religious books have very specific details on our universe, the planets and how they work and all accurate. all this comes from god himself, not science. the way the world works is too perfect, as though god gimself is manupulating the planets. did you know the earth is perfect size for human life? any bigger or any smaller and it wouldnt be possible. to believe that our universe somehow just came together in the perfect spots all by itself is bizarre.



Dr.Grass said:
BluGamer23 said:
Dr.Grass said:
BluGamer23 said:
Satan would be proud of this Thread. done


Yes, because he is working SO hard to 'get one over the big guy' right!? He carefully makes plans to try and corrupt the hearts of God's children so that they might stray from the path of righteousness. Then, upon seeing that His children have been swayed by the snake, God damns them to eternal suffering where they will encounter unprecedented pain and sorrow because of being deceived by the arch-rival, Satan.

God tries to save His children from Satan, but to no avail - the thread is not locked by the moderators.

What an awful world and horrible predicament. Life isn't fair.



aww and here I am thinking no one believes in God.. thats the spirit !..

Either you missed my sarcasm or I missed yours. I was playing devil's advocate to show how ridiculous your statement was.

 

thats right! even the devil believes in God! and you obviously believe in the devil since your playing his advocate... =)



 

It really makes you think.



Final-Fan said:

Well, I'm not sure you can blame it on me if by "with a broken heart" you meant "with humility", but anyway. 

Basically, I grew up Catholic and had no reason to go against what I was taught, no rebellion against my parents etc.  But as I got older the whole thing seemed like it made less and less sense to me.  I realized that if you take the Bible word for word, it just doesn't hold up; and if you start throwing pieces out or "interpreting" them fairly loosely so that it all still makes sense, then it opens you up to questions about how reliable it all really is.  It left me wondering how much of the stuff in the Bible is actually accurate.  It was all written by fallible men, after all. 

The position I ended up at was that I don't know for a fact God doesn't exist, but I don't know He exists either, and if He does I don't know how much He resembles the (seemingly contradictory) descriptions in the Bible.  If, after I die, I find myself in some sort of afterlife, I'd certainly hope that if God is there He will understand that my doubts were reasonable and sincere and not send me to hell just because He elected not to make things more indisputable in this day and age (unlike in the Old Testament where Godly intervention happened all the time, allegedly).  Why should Doubting Thomas be the only one to get evidence? 

If you want something more specific, I don't know how much I can tell you about what specifically changed me over the years.  I do remember one thing:  reading the Book of Job, it seemed to me like God would have to be a humongous dick to act as depicted.  Gets in a pissing match with Satan, why?  Pride?  To prove how incredibly loyal his followers are?  It's not easy to reconcile this with the loving God we know from Sunday school. 

I did enjoy the Superbook cartoons as a kid though.  Couldn't get enough of them. 

I`m not going to tell you i already read the Bible from beginning to end or that i have perfect understanding of it and you don`t. And i hope you don`t take this in the wrong way.


"I realized that if you take the Bible word for word, it just doesn't hold up"
There are parts os the Bible you can take word for word and there are other parts who speak more than just words.
When Jesus told the samaritan woman about the "living water" it`s not to be taken literally. It`s to show how faith in God, how love in God is all humans need to fulfill themselves. Just among one interpretation of living water.

"Why should Doubting Thomas be the only one to get evidence?"
Do you really believe that makes a difference? What about the others who saw what Thomas saw and still didn`t believe? That case for example: if Jesus was so evident with all the miracles why was it that people still didn`t believe?
But you do have evidence (Bible, miracles, apparitions, people`s own experiences). The real question never is, was, will be, about if there`s something in front of you to be "seen", the question is do you believe them? And what that says of a person.
Still i would point out the Marian apparitions here in Portugal if you want more evidence.

About the book of Job.
In what way was Job different from you and me or even Jesus? Don`t we all get tempted by the devil? Even Jesus, the Son of God was tempted.
The Book of Job is about ourselves, not just Job, and how despite all things God`s there for those who stand by Him. Job was rewarded with more than He started with.
In other words, those who lose themselves, find themselves in God. That`s what happened with Job, Jesus and all those who want God.
The obstacles in our life are not enough to stop us. We can overcome them.



You can't see you brain but it exist is the same thing god exist but you can't see him.



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