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Forums - Sony Discussion - LG gets injunction against PS3 sales in Europe!?

Oh. and before everyone freaks out. (Well ok... after.)

Sony can still ship PS3's to Europe.

They just can't ship them to Europe in their traditional way.

 

Import bans are a country to country basis.  So it's really only the Netherlands right now who aren't alound PS3s.

It's a logistical problem, but Sony can reroute shipments to other countries... though they'll likely do so "secretly" like a smuggler to try and avoid LG from stopping the PS3 into other countries as well.



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mantlepiecek said:
Kasz216 said:

Obviously, no doubt this is just an "Ace in the hole" LG had saved up for if Sony ever sued them.  "You sue us? we could actually sue you for worse infringements!"


It's just a case of Sony's over litigating, sue anyone we doing something we don't like style backfiring on them because they are actually sueing a large corporation this time instead of a private individual or a small company like an importer.

No doubt Sony will just lose a small amount of money, have to cover LG's leal fees and end up with a bruised ego.

So its been decided then? You seem so impartial yet I am sure you can't give one proof of sony losing.

Fun fact: PS3 exports are now only banned in netherlands. Not in the entire europe and only for 10 days. 

If Sony wants they can go another way to export PS3s into europe legally.

Its still not happened anywhere except for netherlands. Its something like how geohotz was ordered to show his HDDs to Sony, doesn't mean Sony won or geohotz lost.

I like how you talk about if LG wins. What if they lose? Same things gonna happen to them.

That's not if LG wins.  That's if there is a settlement.  Which there is about a 95% chance of happening since it's likely they'd either both win, or both lose... and I doubt they want BOTH of their products off the market.

Reason Sony would pay LG the money is because Sony's products are worth more to them.  It's like playing a game of chicken, but the drop off to one cliff is 3 feet, and the dropoff to the other is 9 feet.  Unless Sony ends up being really pigheaded...

The whole thing really just illustrates how really stupid IP laws are.  They create a giant net, that basically no company isn't caught in.  They're ALL guilty of IP infringments, it's just rare that you see two companies with the resources to fight each other end up in conflict.



mantlepiecek said:

Fun fact: PS3 exports are now only banned in netherlands. Not in the entire europe and only for 10 days. 

Fun fact #2: Rotterdam and Shipol are the _only_ ports of entry to Europe for Sony (looking at the PS3 situation).That's why LG tried it in the Netherlands with their revenge lawsuit (and, surprisingly, got the injunction - the judge probably just got a third $1000 repair bill for his defective Sony TV..)

Sure, for example, Swiss customs doesn't give a sh*t about that weirdo judge in Den Haag, but to get to ship to Switzerland, you use the river Rhine .. which happens to end in the Netherlands. So what are Sony's options?

1. Fight it out. Try to retribute LG's retribution by blocking LG from the European market (doing the same they tried in the US with the cellphone thing that started all this mess). 

2. Reroute shipping (temporarily), through Brest (France) for example. A logistic nightmare that would increase shipping by a few $ per PS3 probably. And LG would probably and immediately go after them in France, too

3. Use some diplomacy (if available) to convince the Netherlands that moving the entire logistics away from the Netherlands to France would cost them thousands of jobs.

4. Attack the patents LG uses. This is certainly done as we are watching the show. If Sony can succesfully attack only one of the four patents (judging from the US lawsuit, LG uses just four specific patents) then LG will be in serious trouble - very serious trouble  I can assure you.

5. Wait what happens when the 10-day period is over and make plans for 1. - 4. in the meantime.

Solution 5 certainly is the best solution.

 

Now on a more general point, some people think that Sony goofed up with Blu-ray and "stole". Here is a little surprise for you: Nowadays, if you make an electronic device, a processor, whatever, there are hundreds if not thousands of patents involved. It is completely impossible for any engineer not to break some patents (willingly or unwillingly) when designing something. Usually, the rule is "I scratch your back and you scratch mine" - meaning that all the big companies in the playfield have agreed not to go on the warpath if minor infractions occur - otherwise nothing would get designed anymore.

/add I forgot the obvious thing to mention: 6. Change your shipping papers to a different European country of final destination - taking out the Netherland customs right to interfere.



drkohler said:

Fun fact #2: Rotterdam and Shipol are the _only_ ports of entry to Europe for Sony (looking at the PS3 situation).That's why LG tried it in the Netherlands with their revenge lawsuit (and, surprisingly, got the injunction - the judge probably just got a third $1000 repair bill for his defective Sony TV..)

Sure, for example, Swiss customs doesn't give a sh*t about that weirdo judge in Den Haag, but to get to ship to Switzerland, you use the river Rhine .. which happens to end in the Netherlands. So what are Sony's options?

1. Fight it out. Try to retribute LG's retribution by blocking LG from the European market (doing the same they tried in the US with the cellphone thing that started all this mess). 

2. Reroute shipping (temporarily), through Brest (France) for example. A logistic nightmare that would increase shipping by a few $ per PS3 probably. And LG would probably and immediately go after them in France, too

3. Use some diplomacy (if available) to convince the Netherlands that moving the entire logistics away from the Netherlands to France would cost them thousands of jobs.

4. Attack the patents LG uses. This is certainly done as we are watching the show. If Sony can succesfully attack only one of the four patents (judging from the US lawsuit, LG uses just four specific patents) then LG will be in serious trouble - very serious trouble  I can assure you.

5. Wait what happens when the 10-day period is over and make plans for 1. - 4. in the meantime.

Solution 5 certainly is the best solution.

 

Now on a more general point, some people think that Sony goofed up with Blu-ray and "stole". Here is a little surprise for you: Nowadays, if you make an electronic device, a processor, whatever, there are hundreds if not thousands of patents involved. It is completely impossible for any engineer not to break some patents (willingly or unwillingly) when designing something. Usually, the rule is "I scratch your back and you scratch mine" - meaning that all the big companies in the playfield have agreed not to go on the warpath if minor infractions occur - otherwise nothing would get designed anymore.

And what's the chances of LG winning in france?

Even now, LG winning in netherlands is not 100% sure, like people are trying to believe.



Kasz216 said:
psrock said:
kowenicki said:
psrock said:
kowenicki said:
psrock said:
kowenicki said:
Carl2291 said:
chocoloco said:

I hope there is a war between North and South Koreans now and that LG gets bombed out of existance.

Harsh... Very harsh.


Harsh... what? hoping millions die in a war because Sony were (allegedly) light fingered on the IP of another company.... Very measured response I thought.   

Jesus.   

I am still waiting for all those people that applauded the EU for stopping MS bundling IE to come in and defend this decision too....  I might be waiting a while I think.

Very different cases though, but expected post from you.

and an expected response from you.

very different indeed: 

One was a company bundling free software with its OS, the other is a company (allegedly) stealing intellectual property from a rival....   (I actually doubt this will stick tbh but I cant believe some of the responses in here)

Bundling or forcing people to use their crappy browser. And something needed to be done about it. I wish we can stop them from shoving bing in our faces as well. 

forcing?  crappy browser? shoving bing in our faces?   you seem angry...



You don't know much I hate IE, hate it with a passion. when i get a new pc the first thing i always do is get firefox. You had to bring it up. 

The fact that you get firefox proves nobody is forced to use it?


Dumping and monopoly leverage are offences.



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Kasz216 said:
hehey said:
siphillis said:
hehey said:

Ok, i dont know jack shti about pattents or any of that stuff, but if LG wins what happens?, Sony wont be able to sell PS3's ever again? or is taht even possible?


sony has to pay royalties for every ps3 sold or a defined amount one time.

but they can still make and sell them?

If LG wins?   Only if LG lets them.   If particularly vindicitive they can force Sony to pay them money for every PS3 they sold, then force Sony to discontinue and destroy any unsold PS3s.

No, a patent holder must licence its IP at a reasonable price by law. They cannot force Sony to discontinue its products by any means, that would be against the progress, hence the purpose of IP.



Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
hehey said:
siphillis said:
hehey said:

Ok, i dont know jack shti about pattents or any of that stuff, but if LG wins what happens?, Sony wont be able to sell PS3's ever again? or is taht even possible?


sony has to pay royalties for every ps3 sold or a defined amount one time.

but they can still make and sell them?

If LG wins?   Only if LG lets them.   If particularly vindicitive they can force Sony to pay them money for every PS3 they sold, then force Sony to discontinue and destroy any unsold PS3s.

No, a patent holder must licence its IP at a reasonable price by law. They cannot force Sony to discontinue its products by any means, that would be against the progress, hence the purpose of IP.


Then why did Sony have to stop making inversion based motion sensors after they lost their lawsuit?  You can totally choose to not liscense your technology to other people if you want.

Heck, look at Nintendo.  They are the only ones who Produced gamecube discs, and also the only ones who produce wii discs.

They don't liscesnse that technology, and will sue and prvent you from using it if you try too.

It's the same with the old NES cartridges.  It's the same reason every PS3 game HAS to go through Sony.



Kasz216 said:
Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
hehey said:
siphillis said:
hehey said:

Ok, i dont know jack shti about pattents or any of that stuff, but if LG wins what happens?, Sony wont be able to sell PS3's ever again? or is taht even possible?


sony has to pay royalties for every ps3 sold or a defined amount one time.

but they can still make and sell them?

If LG wins?   Only if LG lets them.   If particularly vindicitive they can force Sony to pay them money for every PS3 they sold, then force Sony to discontinue and destroy any unsold PS3s.

No, a patent holder must licence its IP at a reasonable price by law. They cannot force Sony to discontinue its products by any means, that would be against the progress, hence the purpose of IP.


Then why did Sony have to stop making inversion based motion sensors after they lost their lawsuit?  You can totally choose to not liscense your technology to other people if you want.

Heck, look at Nintendo.  They are the only ones who Produced gamecube discs, and also the only ones who produce wii discs.

They don't liscesnse that technology, and will sue and prvent you from using it if you try too.

It's the same with the old NES cartridges.  It's the same reason every PS3 game HAS to go through Sony.

No, you cannot.

You're mixing copyright infringement (NES cartridges, PS3 games), with patent infringment. The licence for PS3 or NES games is not a technological licence, it's a copyright licence.



Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
hehey said:
siphillis said:
hehey said:

Ok, i dont know jack shti about pattents or any of that stuff, but if LG wins what happens?, Sony wont be able to sell PS3's ever again? or is taht even possible?


sony has to pay royalties for every ps3 sold or a defined amount one time.

but they can still make and sell them?

If LG wins?   Only if LG lets them.   If particularly vindicitive they can force Sony to pay them money for every PS3 they sold, then force Sony to discontinue and destroy any unsold PS3s.

No, a patent holder must licence its IP at a reasonable price by law. They cannot force Sony to discontinue its products by any means, that would be against the progress, hence the purpose of IP.


Then why did Sony have to stop making inversion based motion sensors after they lost their lawsuit?  You can totally choose to not liscense your technology to other people if you want.

Heck, look at Nintendo.  They are the only ones who Produced gamecube discs, and also the only ones who produce wii discs.

They don't liscesnse that technology, and will sue and prvent you from using it if you try too.

It's the same with the old NES cartridges.  It's the same reason every PS3 game HAS to go through Sony.

No, you cannot.

You're mixing copyright infringement (NES cartridges, PS3 games), with patent infringment. The licence for PS3 or NES games is not a technological licence, it's a copyright licence.

Show me where your forced to liscense pantents.

Everything i've read on patent law says otherwise.  Note that Drugs are patented... and those rights are not liscensed.

The patent monopoly can be used to exclude others from producing your product, or you can make money by licensing your monopoly rights to others.

http://www.tannedfeet.com/patent_law.htm

 

"Patents protect specific design innovation or way of doing things (That summary may be lacking). They are stronger than copyright, in that independent development is not an excuse. The patent holder is also allowed to refuse licensing the patent (even if they don't use it themselves). The term for patents are also shorter: less than 20 years; whereas copyright lasts for at least 50 years after the death of the author (by berne convention). Patents are also supposed to be granted only for novel ideas not obvious to somebody skilled in the art."

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=41550&start=40

 

Companys are free to withold liscensing to whoever they wish.  If you've got proof to the contrary, feel free to bring it up.



Kasz216 said:
Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
Booh! said:
Kasz216 said:
hehey said:
siphillis said:
hehey said:

Ok, i dont know jack shti about pattents or any of that stuff, but if LG wins what happens?, Sony wont be able to sell PS3's ever again? or is taht even possible?


sony has to pay royalties for every ps3 sold or a defined amount one time.

but they can still make and sell them?

If LG wins?   Only if LG lets them.   If particularly vindicitive they can force Sony to pay them money for every PS3 they sold, then force Sony to discontinue and destroy any unsold PS3s.

No, a patent holder must licence its IP at a reasonable price by law. They cannot force Sony to discontinue its products by any means, that would be against the progress, hence the purpose of IP.


Then why did Sony have to stop making inversion based motion sensors after they lost their lawsuit?  You can totally choose to not liscense your technology to other people if you want.

Heck, look at Nintendo.  They are the only ones who Produced gamecube discs, and also the only ones who produce wii discs.

They don't liscesnse that technology, and will sue and prvent you from using it if you try too.

It's the same with the old NES cartridges.  It's the same reason every PS3 game HAS to go through Sony.

No, you cannot.

You're mixing copyright infringement (NES cartridges, PS3 games), with patent infringment. The licence for PS3 or NES games is not a technological licence, it's a copyright licence.

Show me where your forced to liscense pantents.

Everything i've read on patent law says otherwise.  Note that Drugs are patented... and those rights are not liscensed.

The patent monopoly can be used to exclude others from producing your product, or you can make money by licensing your monopoly rights to others.

http://www.tannedfeet.com/patent_law.htm

 

"Patents protect specific design innovation or way of doing things (That summary may be lacking). They are stronger than copyright, in that independent development is not an excuse. The patent holder is also allowed to refuse licensing the patent (even if they don't use it themselves). The term for patents are also shorter: less than 20 years; whereas copyright lasts for at least 50 years after the death of the author (by berne convention). Patents are also supposed to be granted only for novel ideas not obvious to somebody skilled in the art."

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=41550&start=40

 

Companys are free to withold liscensing to whoever they wish.  If you've got proof to the contrary, feel free to bring it up.


http://www.iprstrust.org/page/basics-faq

Essential patent and essential facility, if you cannot build Bluray players without the LG patents, than those patents are essential. You cited US law, European law is quite more liberal. The difference is that Europe enforces anti-monopoly law, while US never did lately.